tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post231964684815517462..comments2024-02-05T00:22:41.291-08:00Comments on Orthodox Messianic Judaism: Wrestling with the Incarnation: Elliot Wolfson on Incarnational Thinking in the Ancient Israelite ReligionUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-58389971077923316062015-02-23T12:35:36.077-08:002015-02-23T12:35:36.077-08:00Of course, the actual text doesn't necessarily...Of course, the actual text doesn't necessarily imply that the House of David pierced this individual...But I'm going off of your christian translation...<br /><br />Either way, the individual being "pierced" is not mentioned to be of the House of David...<br /><br />So stop insisting that this person must be Moshiach ben David...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15589988406653934350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-52634165770300866342015-02-15T10:24:51.525-08:002015-02-15T10:24:51.525-08:00Peter, earlier you claimed that the prohibition ag...Peter, earlier you claimed that the prohibition against for worship only applied to "man made forms." But now, after I challenged you on whether or not Adam and celestial bodies created by G-d and not man are potential candidates for worship, you have now changed the story and you have admitted that although Adam and the moon, the sun, and the stars were "G-d made" and not "man made," these images are not potential candidates for worship.<br /><br />So now that you've admitted that the prohibition in Deuteronomy 4:9-19 applies to G-d made images as well as man made images, you have yourself a problem:<br /><br />Deuteronomy 4:9-19 prohibits the worship of ANY FORM.<br /><br />You want to convince us that a creation of G-d, jesus/man, is actually our Creator/Hashem. This is ridiculous because by definition, man is a creation of Hashem. This disqualifies jesus or any other man from being synonymous with Hashem!<br /><br />Also, notice that the prohibition of the worship of ANY FORM mentioned in Deut 4:15-19 does not make an exception for "uncreated forms of man." (Whatever that's supposed to mean.)<br /><br />I've heard christians like you make the baseless claim that jesus was an "uncreated man," thus making him immune to this prohibition against form worship...<br /><br />But even if this asinine scenario of jesus supposedly being an "uncreated man/form" were true, Deuteronomy 4:15-19 does not make exceptions for "uncreated forms/men," or whatever absurd "loophole" you are trying to make for your idolatrous case for jesus worship...<br /><br />ShalomUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15589988406653934350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-43675583612863352952015-02-15T09:38:03.903-08:002015-02-15T09:38:03.903-08:00"Unknown",
G-d has always existed. For..."Unknown",<br /><br />G-d has always existed. For an entity to be G-d, therefore, the entity must have always existed. Adam did not always exist but rather His existence began in the garden of Eden. Therefore, Adam is not G-d.<br /><br />By the way, the Prohibition on making an idol deals with context. A rock by itself is not an idol. But if someone projects his idea of a "god" onto the rock and, through his own pride, begins to worship his self-projection then he violates the prohibition.<br /><br />This prohibition on making an idol does not apply to Yeshua since Yeshua exists as G-d on His own and has always existed. <br /><br />By the way, if you would like, I can quote to you at length from Jewish sources that talk about the pre-existence of the Messiah (i.e. the Divinity of the Messiah). <br /><br />Shalom,<br /><br />Peter<br /><br /><br />Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03742087402667360623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-35088178165840640252015-02-14T17:13:39.346-08:002015-02-14T17:13:39.346-08:00I'll certainly deal with your new post, but pl...I'll certainly deal with your new post, but please do me the courtesy of answering my questions to you as well. I'll repeat them here:<br /><br />Why do you elevate jesus over, Adam, Peter? You have no good reason to according to your erroneous understanding of the passage...<br /><br />Also, why do you dismiss these as being potential entities for worship, yet put full faith in jesus as your god? <br /><br />If you were truly intellectually honest with your interpretation, you would acknowledge that G-d COULD assume the form of Adam, the moon, the stars, etc...<br /><br />Do you? Shalom<br /> <br /><br />Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15589988406653934350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-54232132973628187772015-02-14T16:59:17.853-08:002015-02-14T16:59:17.853-08:00Dear "Unknown":
I have some questions f...Dear "Unknown":<br /><br />I have some questions for you in a new post:<br /><br />http://orthodoxmessianic.blogspot.com/2015/02/the-paradox-of-divine-messiah-and-other.htmlPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03742087402667360623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-83586952338772263762015-02-14T16:07:50.255-08:002015-02-14T16:07:50.255-08:00Peter,
Whether you want to admit it or not, your ...Peter,<br /><br />Whether you want to admit it or not, your understanding of Deut 4:9-19 allows for the potential worship of Adam, the first man.<br /><br />Why? Because Adam was made by G-d! Adam was not man made! And since you insist that the prohibition against the worship of ANY FORM only applies to "man made forms," you are inadvertently allowing for the possibility of the worship of Adam, the first man. For he was not man made...Adam was made by G-d, not man! Thus, he is fair game for worship.<br /><br />So why do you elevate jesus over, Adam, Peter? You have no good reason to according to your erroneous understanding of the passage...<br /><br />Moreover, you have also allowed the possibility for "moon, sun, and star worship," since the moon, the sun, and the stars were also not "man made" but made by G-d Himself! <br /><br />Yet the passage explicitly states that the moon, the sun, and the stars are idolatrous to worship...<br /><br />So you have yourself a problem, Peter. Clearly, "making" an image, does not exclusively apply to a man made image from stone, wood, copper, etc. This prohibition must refer to ALL IMAGES, whether they are man made or not...<br /><br />Otherwise, Adam, the moon, the sun, the stars etc. are all fair game for potential worship. They are not man made, yet they are images. <br /><br />So why do you dismiss these as being potential entities for worship, yet put full faith in jesus as your god? <br /><br />If you were truly intellectually honest with your interpretation, you would acknowledge that G-d COULD assume the form of Adam, the moon, the stars, etc...<br /><br />But I guess I expected too much from you...<br /><br />Shavua Tov.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15589988406653934350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-57178298627476692622015-02-13T14:47:48.759-08:002015-02-13T14:47:48.759-08:00@ Unknown,
Here's the rub: G-d is not prohibi...@ Unknown,<br /><br />Here's the rub: G-d is not prohibited from manifesting in the form of a man.<br /><br />RE: "... do you entertain the possibility that Adam may be worshipped?"<br /><br />No. Why would I?<br /><br />RE: "Do you also entertain the possibility that the moon, the sun, and the stars may be worshipped as well?"<br /><br />No. Why would I? <br /><br />RE: "Let's see how intellectually honest you are with your argumentation..."<br /><br />You are the one making a contradiction. You say we cannot worship a "form" and yet the Torah says G-d has a form. You claim the Torah prohibits G-d from appearing in a form--yet there's no such prohibition in Torah!<br /><br /><br />Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03742087402667360623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-27003941034530231812015-02-13T14:38:19.111-08:002015-02-13T14:38:19.111-08:00@ Gene,
RE: "Peter, you are splinting hairs...@ Gene,<br /><br />RE: "Peter, you are splinting hairs, hanging on words, looking for loopholes. Had I been making your sort of argument in defense of whatever, you'd rip me to shreds, and rightly so."<br /><br />As long as you are hanging onto HaShem's words, then I don't criticize. His Word does not prohibit Him from taking form. Period. That prohibition is not to be found anywhere in the Torah. Furthermore, He has a form. That is textual. <br /><br />Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03742087402667360623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-55574601623936282872015-02-13T12:09:33.656-08:002015-02-13T12:09:33.656-08:00Peter, does this mean that G-d could assume the fo...Peter, does this mean that G-d could assume the form of Adam, the first man as well?<br /><br />You are insistent that this prohibition only applies to "man made forms."<br /><br />Knowing this, do you entertain the possibility that Adam may be worshipped?<br /><br />Also, the moon the sun and the stars were not "man made images" either...<br /><br />Do you also entertain the possibility that the moon, the sun, and the stars may be worshipped as well?<br /><br />Let's see how intellectually honest you are with your argumentation...<br /><br />ShalomUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15589988406653934350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-51005246317219894262015-02-13T12:02:13.951-08:002015-02-13T12:02:13.951-08:00"That's not in the text. The prohibits ma..."That's not in the text. The prohibits making an idolatrous image. It does not prohibit G-d from revealing Himself (His form) to man. "<br /><br />Peter, you are splinting hairs, hanging on words, looking for loopholes. Had I been making your sort of argument in defense of whatever, you'd rip me to shreds, and rightly so.Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-43290600392015120462015-02-13T11:47:19.385-08:002015-02-13T11:47:19.385-08:00"Unknown" and Gene,
RE: "G-d proh..."Unknown" and Gene,<br /><br />RE: "G-d prohibits the worship of ANY FORM INCLUDING MAN."<br /><br />That's not in the text. The prohibits making an idolatrous image. It does not prohibit G-d from revealing Himself (His form) to man. <br /> <br /><br /> <br />Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03742087402667360623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-14183759654644689592015-02-13T10:46:54.142-08:002015-02-13T10:46:54.142-08:00"Explain: "Let US make man in OUR IMAGE,..."Explain: "Let US make man in OUR IMAGE, in OUR FORM.""<br /><br />Whatever G-d meant here He couldn't have meant a physical form because he doesn't have anything of the sort, but man does. Note: Rashi actually offers an interesting explanation that G-d was addressing angels in His Heavenly court (who had a visible form that indeed looked like man's).<br /><br />Regardless, Hashem specifically warned Israelites, "to watch themselves carefully" that they saw "no form" on the mountain and not to corrupt themselves by worshiping physical creatures or creations. So, you wish to ignore and violate G-d's explicit warning so that you can keep worshippng of Jesus as god, a human being who definitely had a visible form.<br /><br />I, however, think that logic will eventually lead you to acknowledge the facts in front of you and become obedient to G-d's word, instead of trusting in wisdom of men who are chasing after latest sensationalist theories.Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-34966933413703668442015-02-13T10:29:19.347-08:002015-02-13T10:29:19.347-08:00Peter, I'm not the one who made the prohibitio...Peter, I'm not the one who made the prohibition against the worship of any form. G-d did in Deut 4:9-19. <br /><br />I didn't necessarily say that G-d "has a form." What I said is that it is theoretically possible for G-d to "have a form" since G-d is all powerful. However, since G-d explicitly prohibits the worship of any form in Deut 4:9-19, whatever "form" that G-d could theoretically assume is not to be worshipped by man.<br /><br />So in effect, this means that in the sight of Israel, G-d is essentially promising Israel that he will never appear to us in any form suitable for worship. That includes any theoretically possible form that the human mind can conjure up, including the form of a man. <br /><br />This mean that if you assume that jesus or any other man is "god in the flesh" you are committing idolatry. Deuteronomy 4:9-19 is clear as day on this prohibition and no liberal scholar is going to change this fact. <br /><br />Asking the question of whether or not G-d "has a form" is analogous to asking the question of whether or not G-d can sin. Theoretically, I guess you could say that G-d has the power to do so, but whatever that means, man has no means of understanding how G-d could possibly "sin."<br /><br />If G-d were to hypothetically assume a form and demand Israel's worship in that form, this would be a violation of G-d's explicit command to Israel in Deut 4:9-19 concerning the fact that Israel is not to worship G-d in ANY FORM.<br /><br />If you want to entertain the possibility of G-d doing such a thing, that's your prerogative. However, if G-d did do such a thing, this would make G-d a liar, and effectively, a sinner, as G-d explicitly told Israel not to worship Him in any form.<br /><br />Deut 4:9-19 isn't going away, Peter. Whether G-d has a "form" or not, it makes no difference. G-d prohibits the worship of ANY FORM INCLUDING MAN. <br /><br />Thus, to worship jesus as Hashem is to commit idolatry. <br /><br />ShalomUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15589988406653934350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-50423842725095382042015-02-13T10:15:01.339-08:002015-02-13T10:15:01.339-08:00Gene,
Explain: "Let US make man in OUR IMAG...Gene,<br /><br />Explain: "Let US make man in OUR IMAGE, in OUR FORM."<br /><br />"Unknown" says that we're prohibited from worshiping a form and yet G-d has a form. Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03742087402667360623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-55696804081007703912015-02-13T09:42:34.608-08:002015-02-13T09:42:34.608-08:00" Read Sommers."
This liberal sensation..." Read Sommers."<br /><br />This liberal sensationalist's premise is that Israelites adopted the Canaanites' understanding of their gods (specifically having <i>multiple</i> bodies) to the G-d of Israel, then suppressed this idea because of Torah's monotheism and continue to suppress and deny it, but that this idea can still be found in Biblical anthropomorphism (e.g. "arm of the L-rd"), in mystical Jewish works (like Kabbalah's emanations - which are of course are not "bodies" in any way) and finally made it's way into Christian trinitarianism. So, he draws a direct line from Canaanites to Trinity! Strange bed fellows liberals "scholars" and Christians looking for confirmation of their idolatry make...Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-38224653317192463032015-02-13T07:35:55.924-08:002015-02-13T07:35:55.924-08:00(Part 2)
Deut 4:9. But beware and watch yourself ...(Part 2)<br /><br />Deut 4:9. But beware and watch yourself very well, lest you forget the things that your eyes saw, and lest these things depart from your heart, all the days of your life, **and you shall make them known to your children and to your children’s children,**<br /><br />Here we see that G-d is commanding Israel to teach these things throughout their generations. G-d is directly telling Israel to teach their children about the things they saw and the things on their hearts. What are these things you ask? Lets continue reading:<br /><br />Deut 4:10. the day you stood before the Lord your God at Horeb, when the Lord said to me, “Assemble the people for Me, and I will let them hear My words, that they may learn to fear Me all the days that they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children.<br /><br />Deut 4:11. And you approached and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire up to the midst of the heavens, with darkness, a cloud, and opaque darkness.<br /><br />Deut 4:12. The Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of the words, but saw no image, just a voice.<br /><br />Here we have G-d explaining to the children of Israel what they “saw.” Notice that what they “saw” was no image according to G-d Himself! Moving on…<br /><br />Deut 4:13. And He told you His covenant, which He commanded you to do, the Ten Commandments, and He inscribed them on two stone tablets.<br /><br />Deut 4:14. And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and ordinances, so that you should do them in the land to which you are crossing, to possess.<br /><br />This verse is important to read in context with the next few verses because it reiterates the fact that these commands are not just a “one time deal.” Rather, G-d is commanding Israel not to worship Him in any form throughout all our generations! <br /><br />So there's no escaping it, Peter. There clearly is a clear prohibition against ALL form worship. It doesn't matter whether or not G-d can theoretically "have" a form. <br /><br />The prohibition against form worship is not restricted to "man made" objects, nor is it restrictive to the singular experience that Israel had at Horeb...<br /><br />So once again, you can either continue to ignore Chazal and cherry pick liberal scholarly ideas to fit your confirmation bias concerning your idolatrous worship of jesus.<br /><br />Or you can actually follow G-d's Torah, which clearly prohibits the worship of ANY FORM, regardless of G-d's theoretically "ability" to assume a form.<br /><br />To worship jesus or any other form is clearly idolatry according to Deut 4:9-19. You can quote all the liberal scholars you want, but just know that you are fighting against G-d's word by doing so...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15589988406653934350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-76587545506256729432015-02-13T07:35:21.035-08:002015-02-13T07:35:21.035-08:00Once again, Peter, there actually is a prohibition...Once again, Peter, there actually is a prohibition against the worship of ANY FORM. It doesn't matter if G-d theoretically "has" a form or not. That's a completely different debate entirely. <br /><br />This question is whether or not WORSHIPING G-d as a "form" is is considered idolatry. According to Deuteronomy 4:9-19, we are not to worship G-d in ANY FORM. As I state in my previous posts, this prohibition is not limited to "man made forms." Adam, the first man, was not made by man, but rather, made by G-d. But I'm sure we both agree that Adam is not suitable for worship. Likewise, the moon, the sun, and the stars are clearly prohibited for worship...But it clearly states that they are all prohibited for worship in Deuteronomy 4:19. <br /><br />So yes, there is a prohibition against worshipping a form. This is precisely why G-d emphasizes the fact that Israel SAW NO FORM in Deuteronomy 4:12<br /><br />Deut 4:12. The Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of the words, **BUT SAW NO IMAGE,** just a voice.<br /><br />And again in Deut 4:15<br /><br />Deut 4:15. And you shall watch yourselves very well, for **YOU DID NOT SEE ANY IMAGE** on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire.<br /><br />As you know, Deut 4:16-19 goes on to prohibit the worship of ANY FORM, be it "man made" or not!<br /><br />Deut 4:16. Lest you become corrupt and make for yourselves a graven image, the representation of ANY FORM, the likeness of MALE or female,<br />Deut 4:17. the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the heaven,<br />Deut 4:18. the likeness of anything that crawls on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters, beneath the earth.<br />Deut 4:19. And lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and see the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, which the Lord your God assigned to all peoples under the entire heaven, and be drawn away to prostrate yourselves before them and worship them.<br />Peter, from this passage, we see two explicit themes:<br /><br />1. G-d is explicitly commanding Israel not to worship Him in any form. (Deut 4:16)<br /><br />2. G-d is explicitly commanding Israel to teach this to their children and their children’s children, even after they come to the land of Israel. (Deut 4:9-14)<br /> (part 1)<br />Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15589988406653934350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-5336529367749711512015-02-13T05:24:25.041-08:002015-02-13T05:24:25.041-08:00Unknown,
RE: "...since jesus was a man, thi...Unknown,<br /><br />RE: "...since jesus was a man, this means that jesus was a creation of G-d."<br /><br />I think Benjamin Sommers has an interesting point about this. Please see his quote in my new post entitled "The G-d Who Walked in the Garden" and let me know what you think. <br /><br />But the bottom line is that there is no prohibition against worshipping a form. That's just your made up interpretation. The Torah, on the other hand, prohibits making an idol. The Torah also says that G-d has form. "Let US make man in OUR IMAGE, in OUR FORM." <br /><br />You ignore what Torah says and insert your own prohibition. Read Sommers.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03742087402667360623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-16213642084158649852015-02-12T18:07:13.264-08:002015-02-12T18:07:13.264-08:00Peter, here's what we do know:
1. Man is a cr...Peter, here's what we do know:<br /><br />1. Man is a creation of G-d.<br /><br />2. Your jesus was a man<br /><br />Putting these two concepts together, we can definitively conclude that since jesus was a man, this means that jesus was a creation of G-d. <br /><br />You want to convince us that a creation of G-d, jesus/man, is actually our Creator/Hashem. This is ridiculous because by definition, man is a creation of Hashem. This disqualifies jesus or any other man from being synonymous with Hashem!<br /><br />Also, notice that the prohibition of the worship of ANY FORM mentioned in Deut 4:15-19 does not make an exception for "uncreated forms of man." (Whatever that's supposed to mean.)<br /><br />I've heard christians like you make the baseless claim that jesus was an "uncreated man," thus making him immune to this prohibition against form worship...<br /><br />But even if this asinine scenario of jesus supposedly being an "uncreated man/form" were true, Deuteronomy 4:15-19 does not make exceptions for "uncreated forms/men," or whatever absurd "loophole" you are trying to make for your idolatrous case for jesus worship...<br /><br />ShalomUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15589988406653934350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-52768595070371282582015-02-12T16:44:07.391-08:002015-02-12T16:44:07.391-08:00"The "will" of G-d pre-existed the ..."The "will" of G-d pre-existed the creation of the universe, did it not?"<br /><br />Peter, the "will of G-d" has always existed, but Judaism holds that the Torah was created (and yes, it was created before the foundation of the world and was used a a "blueprint" for it). The Torah reflects the will of G-d, but it's not G-d, in the same as the man reflects the image of G-d, but is not G-d either. Torah is a creation of G-d and was given as a gift to humanity. G-d didn't give Himself as a gift to mankind (if anything, it is the mankind who is a "gift" G-d gave Himself - Israel at least per G-d's own words is called G-d's "treasure").Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-48141157459647353402015-02-12T14:38:01.665-08:002015-02-12T14:38:01.665-08:00"Unknown" and Gene,
If the Torah repres..."Unknown" and Gene,<br /><br />If the Torah represents G-d's will--which is something from His essence--then how can one say that G-d's will was created? It is not like a rock or plant. The "will" of G-d pre-existed the creation of the universe, did it not?Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03742087402667360623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-10994409210368488432015-02-12T14:12:44.065-08:002015-02-12T14:12:44.065-08:00Let's quickly recap what we mean by "Tora...Let's quickly recap what we mean by "Torah" - it means instructions or teachings given by G-d to Israel (and by extension, to the rest of humanity too, through Israel, as applicable) on how to properly love, worship, serve G-d, how to live righteously (a multifaceted area), including how treat our fellow human beings.Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-56916138078600518202015-02-12T14:04:18.860-08:002015-02-12T14:04:18.860-08:00Inspired by G-d, of course. (Torah itself is not &...Inspired by G-d, of course. (Torah itself is not "divine", only G-d is. It's a creation of G-d).Gene Shlomovichhttp://dailyminyan.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-20095469794161302852015-02-12T14:00:41.961-08:002015-02-12T14:00:41.961-08:00I agree that the Torah is the divinely inspired wo...I agree that the Torah is the divinely inspired word of G-d.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15589988406653934350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-83451682407222164882015-02-12T13:50:12.952-08:002015-02-12T13:50:12.952-08:00"Unknown" and Gene,
Let's back up a..."Unknown" and Gene,<br /><br />Let's back up a step. Do you both agree that the Torah is Divine? Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03742087402667360623noreply@blogger.com