tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post4283127263187348495..comments2024-02-05T00:22:41.291-08:00Comments on Orthodox Messianic Judaism: What Law School Taught Me About Rabbinic AuthorityUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-30603238516394779612013-07-15T10:50:25.372-07:002013-07-15T10:50:25.372-07:00I look forward to a conversation on this, after Ti...I look forward to a conversation on this, after Tisha b'Av. What Messianics who practice Torah are oftentimes unaware of is how much of their observance is formed by the Oral Torah and by Jewish minhag. It is important to be conscious of this, and to recognize the interwovenness of all the factors that contribute to our practical observance. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-33359376630940080762013-07-14T21:41:11.500-07:002013-07-14T21:41:11.500-07:00There is a saying that I think fits nicely here:
...There is a saying that I think fits nicely here:<br /><br />"There is a difference between honoring tradition and being bound by it."<br /><br />Zionnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-20722400791223327112013-07-12T11:22:50.968-07:002013-07-12T11:22:50.968-07:00Messianic 613,
While I don't agree with all o...Messianic 613,<br /><br />While I don't agree with all of the assumptions you're making, I think it's great that you brought up so many different issues. I look forward to responding to all of your points fully after Shabbat.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03742087402667360623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-54922105716112254232013-07-12T11:06:27.139-07:002013-07-12T11:06:27.139-07:00Thanks, Dan! I'll check it out now.Thanks, Dan! I'll check it out now.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03742087402667360623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-87817099468156507892013-07-12T09:30:36.705-07:002013-07-12T09:30:36.705-07:00I don't think that when Yeshua challenged some...<em>I don't think that when Yeshua challenged some teachings of the Pharisees, that he intended to give individual believers of later times permission to do the same. The position of Yeshua as Messiah is unique.</em><br /><br />This is an illogical equation, you cannot have Yeshua usurping the authority of God, and still being the Messiah. Also, Yeshua was not the only one to challenge the Pharisees, the Apostles did this as well. <br /><br /><em>Although we read of the Bereans in Acts 17:11 that they searched the Scriptures "whether those things — i.e. the messianic message — were so, they did this as a community.</em><br /><br />Does not matter if it was done communally or individually, they searched the scriptures, as if they could understand the bible outside of tradition or halacha, that in itself is a problem for those who make the claim that it cannot be done. <br /><br />If your logic were to actually be applied today, not Christian should exist outside of Catholicism. <br /><br /><br />Zionnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-49902702944232990442013-07-12T02:58:20.853-07:002013-07-12T02:58:20.853-07:00I don't think that when Yeshua challenged some...I don't think that when Yeshua challenged some teachings of the Pharisees, that he intended to give individual believers of later times permission to do the same. The position of Yeshua as Messiah is unique. He gave halachic authority to the Apostles, but not to individual believers. Although we read of the Bereans in Acts 17:11 that they searched the Scriptures "whether those things — i.e. the messianic message — were so, they did this as a community. <br /><br />Halachah can only be established in the context of a proper chain of tradition and by the authorities who are the legitimate bearers of that tradition. The Protestant principle: "My Bible and I" — oftentimes rather "I and my Bible" — only leads to individual interpretations, which are always disastruous for developing community rules. This Protestant principle never functioned in the history of Israel. In ancient Israel, for example, the proper authorities were the levitical priesthood, and individuals were bound by their decisions, whether they were right or wrong. <br /><br />Messianics have to study two interrelated problems here. First, there is the problem of the Pharisaic Revolution. How do we deal with the fact of the historical appearance of the Pharisees as an authoritative class of which nothing is said in the Torah? Second, there is the problem that at present no one can claim proper authority in the Body of Messiah. All so-called messianic "Rabbis" and teachers are self-proclaimed. <br /><br />The Pharisaic Revolution probably occurred when the chain of the Aaronic High Priesthood was broken under Antiochus IV. From then on, there was no longer a legitimate High Priest in Israel according to the standards of the Written Torah, a situation which caused a very fundamental problem. The problem was solved by introducing new and non-biblical authoritative concepts, such as the Synagoge Megale or Great Synagogue, and by transferring the Priesthood to the Hasmoneans. Essentially, these changes implied the introduction of a new concept of Torah, later called "Oral Torah". <br /><br />Yeshua and the Apostles seem to have accepted the non-Aaronic High Priesthood of their days as legitimate, although this institution obviously contradicted the teachings of the Written Torah. This implies that they accepted the idea that in some cases the Oral Torah is above the Written Torah. In any case, it is impossible to reduce the Oral Torah to the authority of Scripture, or to deduce its rules from Scripture. <br /><br />We thus face two problems here: The problem of the authority of the Oral Torah and its historical origins; and the problem of how to establish proper seats of authority in the Assembly of Messiah.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-88374152259167641552013-07-11T16:38:08.125-07:002013-07-11T16:38:08.125-07:00On Matt. 23:1-3 read this:
http://www.torahresour...On Matt. 23:1-3 read this:<br /><br />http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Oral-Torah_Background.pdf<br /><br />Go to page 15.Dan Benzvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411063743206730041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-47975827138107869142013-07-11T13:57:20.337-07:002013-07-11T13:57:20.337-07:00Agreed, there are those who state they believe the...Agreed, there are those who state they believe the Torah cannot be understood outside of tradition or halacha or the authority of the Pharisees and thus later on the rabbis. However that idea is proven not correct in the fact that Yeshua challenged the Pharisees and he pitted the Halacha against the Scriptures as if they were completely separate, not to say all the Halacha is wrong, however scripture stood on its own. We see this in Yeshua making the distinction between the tradition and the commandment. Some teachers argue that there is no distinction between the tradition and the commandment, as "one cannot understand the commandment without the tradition", as they claim. Clearly this proves this claim false.Zionnoreply@blogger.com