tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post5791849371035317695..comments2024-02-05T00:22:41.291-08:00Comments on Orthodox Messianic Judaism: The Difference Between How Jews and Christians Read the BibleUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-50730058408660045622014-12-12T05:07:19.921-08:002014-12-12T05:07:19.921-08:00RE: "Where is the Ruach in the whole discuss...RE: "Where is the Ruach in the whole discussion? "<br /><br /><br />That'll be in part 2. See post dated 12/12/14 which I'm about to write in the next few minutes.Peternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-46397174018608018172014-12-10T15:56:59.123-08:002014-12-10T15:56:59.123-08:00Where is the Ruach in the whole discussion? Certa...Where is the Ruach in the whole discussion? Certainly, I would agree that there is some benefit in learning rabbinic halacha, but with the giving of the Spirit, can He not lead the individual in understanding the written Word to the extent that it is walked out without 39 Sabbath restrictions and precise hand washing ritual?<br /><br />There is a place of balance...<br /><br />I would see in order of priority:<br />- The Written Torah<br />- The Spirit leading the individual into truth<br />- Some guidance/direction from the learned men of old, both among the rabbis and among some of Christian commentary, though both need to be closely scrutinized for the errors they contain.<br /><br />Enjoying the discussion and banter.Pete Rambohttp://www.natsab.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-17204839124103055102014-12-09T13:35:38.721-08:002014-12-09T13:35:38.721-08:00That is not the argument and you know it. You spo...That is not the argument and you know it. You spoke as if you believe that halacha is authoritative. Shades of BE?rabdannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-77799043014134998822014-12-09T12:16:17.037-08:002014-12-09T12:16:17.037-08:00So Yeshua contradicted Himself....At list accordin...So Yeshua contradicted Himself....At list according to you....OY!rabdannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-25729576285051978542014-12-09T11:45:36.235-08:002014-12-09T11:45:36.235-08:00For Yeshua to accept any of the rabbinic halachah ...For Yeshua to accept any of the rabbinic halachah of His day, this shows that He recognized (i.e. the meta rule of recognition) that the rabbinic system had some authority ("the seat of Moses"). If Yeshua disagreed with some of the halachah this does not mean that He rejected the entire system. Yeshua worked within the system, appealed to rabbinic logic, Torah, etc, whenever He confronted halachah that He disagreed with. He never said "The whole system is wrong! Abandon ship!" Quite the opposite.<br /><br />It's a fallacy to say that Yeshua rejected the halachic system because He sometimes argued against certain halachic teachings. We know He accepted the rabbinic halachic system not only because of Matthew 23 but also because logically if you keep halacha (e.g. tzitzit, etc), as Yeshua did, then you are showing yourself to have approved the institutions that created that halacha.Peternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-72920293358377667922014-12-09T10:44:46.689-08:002014-12-09T10:44:46.689-08:00They are to be obeyed, but only to the extent that...<em>They are to be obeyed, but only to the extent that what they teach is not inconsistent with the true meaning of righteousness, which the disciples learned from Jesus, or--put positively--to the extent that their teaching is in accord with the true intention of the Mosaic Law. In principle, the Pharisees are correct; in actuality, they are often wrong (cf. Luke 11:52: 'You have taken away the key of knowledge'). The issue is again the real meaning of the Law and the nature of true righteousness...</em><br /><br />This is saying both, since the Pharisees might teach something inconsistent to the Torah, as is stated here, and thus some of what they teach is correct, while some teachings invalidate the Torah, then we cannot be definitive on this issue, either way. Clearly some of the Halacha, is wise and should be sought after, but then some should be set aside. There is no black and white answer here. Even the writer above, states that when the Pharisees are wrong, then the "true meaning of righteousness" or the "true intention of the Mosaic Law" should be sought after. So even according to the writer, he is not saying that Yeshua validated Halacha carte blanch, but he also shows that Yeshua did not throw the baby out with the bath water.<br /><br />Yeshua Himself, makes a distinction between the Law of God and the Laws of Man... in Mark 7. This is very important in our understanding that they are not one and the same, however it does not automatically mean man made laws are wrong. We have some great ones, having laws for stop signs and stop lights are great inventions. Having laws on which door of the Temple to walk into to bring in a sacrifice, where to stand while you wait, etc are important man made laws... however there is a difference.<br /><br /><em>The key point I'm trying to establish is that Yeshua could not have been for rabbinic halacha and yet against the rabbinic halachic system. Accepting one, you must accept both.</em><br /><br />But that is not what we see, and even the writer above disagrees with your conclusion. It is a lot more fuzzy than he is against or for it, it is a mix of both.Zionnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-90681722140943767092014-12-09T10:11:58.866-08:002014-12-09T10:11:58.866-08:00What, are you now a BE guy?
" All of these e...What, are you now a BE guy?<br /><br />" All of these errors add up to the view that rabbinic halachah is garbage. "<br /><br /><br /><br />You better believe it is, it is men's invention, what is the matter with you? It led to Kaballa and all other Micky Mouse writings. These people reject you Messiah, these people equate you Gentile mind to an animal mind, and now you are kissing their collective butts?<br /><br /><br />You have no idea what halacha is, it is not a Virginian law... You are showing total ignorance.<br /><br /><br />Read: "A Rabbinic Anthology" by Montefiore & Loewe (2 Jews).<br /><br /><br />Read: "Introduction to the Talmud & MIshnah by Strack & Stemberger.<br /><br /><br />Read: Anything on the Mishnah by Jacob Neusner (a Jew and a Rabbi).<br /><br /><br />Learn about halacha and then you can maybe critisize someone's else's writing just because they oppose you and your other 2 house friends....<br /><br /><br />Did not mean to offend, just to put you in your place.....rabdannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-30697854113436991392014-12-09T05:13:04.606-08:002014-12-09T05:13:04.606-08:00It's loaded with errors which I'll talk ab...It's loaded with errors which I'll talk about in a separate post. All of these errors add up to the view that rabbinic halachah is garbage. So I'll do a separate post and go into some depth about Hegg's writings on this subject.Peternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-47403070657036465392014-12-08T20:32:15.472-08:002014-12-08T20:32:15.472-08:00I noticed this mistake you do again and again. Bec...I noticed this mistake you do again and again. Because your training you tend to analyze passages in modern law terms, discarding any theological, biblical and historical aspect of the passage.<br />But then, you take one sentence out of one article that Hegg wrote and you apply it to his belief without reading all his material.<br /><br /><br />Go to his website and find the article titled: "What version of the Mishnah did Paul read?" Page 14 under: " Matt. 23. Please read it with the exegetical, grammatical, and historical viewpoint, not from a Virginia's court room point of view.rabdannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-50166683458879497092014-12-08T17:32:22.277-08:002014-12-08T17:32:22.277-08:00Re: "No-one says the disciples broke halacha...Re: "No-one says the disciples broke halacha."<br /><br />Hegg seems to say exactly that. Worse, he also suggests that the ENTIRE set of rabbinic halacha distorts the spirit of the day. He writes: <br /><br /> "...the many Sabbath regulations that had been added by the rabbis threatened to turn the day into a ritual, losing sight of its true covenant significance. The manner in which they had accused Yeshua and the disciples of profaning the Shabbat was just one indication that this was happening....What, then, is the conclusion? Did Yeshua and HIs disciples disregard the Sabbath by walking through a field, plucking heads of grain, and eating the grain? The answer is 'No.' They may have not conformed to some of the laws formulated by some of the Pharisees, but they in no way violated any commandment of God."<br /><br />If Hegg is right that the rabbinic halacha loses sight of the true covenant significance of the Shabbat and is basically anti-Torah then why would anyone have respect for rabbinic halacha? He's calling it utter rubbish. Hegg's assertion would make it a religious obligation to disregard rabbinic halacha! And that contradicts what Yeshua says about Pharisaic norms in Matthew 23. Furthermore, those same Pharisaic norms that prohibited grain plucking and caused the Pharisees to accuse Yeshua and His disciples--those same norms exist today in rabbinic Judaism (despite the fact that Written Torah would seem to allow grain plucking). But they fenced it up! And Yeshua didn't tell them that they were wrong to add a fence. Even Hegg is forced to note: "Yeshua does not discount their judgment altogether. He could have retorted that neither He nor His disciples were required to obey man-made rules, but He does not."<br /><br />Yeshua does not say the fence is wrong. Rather, He cites to a justification--something greater than the Temple is here! Meaning the prohibition--valid or not--didn't apply to the disciples at that time because they were serving one who was greater than the Temple.Peternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-25111651477251706652014-12-08T15:05:25.192-08:002014-12-08T15:05:25.192-08:00You need to learn to read in context Bro. No-one ...You need to learn to read in context Bro. No-one says the disciples broke halacha. THEY WERE ACCUSED BY THE PHRISEES FOR BREAKING HALACHA....Got it?rabdannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-88778241276069832982014-12-08T05:14:15.048-08:002014-12-08T05:14:15.048-08:00Just glanced through it BEFORE work. My first rea...Just glanced through it BEFORE work. My first reaction is that Hegg is wrong though he says some good things. Here's where he's wrong. He says "[the disciples] have not conformed to some of the laws formulated by some of the Pharisees..."<br /><br /><br />That's incorrect. If Yeshua cited a justification for the disciples behavior (something greater than the Temple) then what His real defense of the disciples is this "Yes, the disciples violated rabbinic halachah by plucking (which by the way is not a violation of Written Torah); however, they were justified because they are engaged in something even greater than Temple service." Thus, the rabbinic prohibition doesn't apply (just as the Torah doesn't apply certain Shabbat prohibitions to the priests). And, therefore, Yeshua reasons that the disciples were guiltless (Matt 12:7)--i.e. they didn't violate a prohibition since the prohibitions didn't apply in this situation. <br /><br /><br />Thus, Hegg's statement that the disciples didn't conform to rabbinic halacha is incorrect. There was no violation and thus no evidence of non-conformity.<br /><br /><br />Dan, a question for you: I want your opinion this time and not Hegg's: do YOU think that the disciples violated rabbinic halacha that day? <br /><br /><br />I want to hear your response (it's the least you can do for me since you made me late for work). : )Peternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-3385748852204511572014-12-08T04:46:13.270-08:002014-12-08T04:46:13.270-08:00Ha! Okay. Won't have a chance till this even...Ha! Okay. Won't have a chance till this evening though.Peternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-20040818537312920182014-12-07T23:11:11.723-08:002014-12-07T23:11:11.723-08:00Yes. You spend all the money on Tim Hegg's bo...Yes. You spend all the money on Tim Hegg's book, so why don't you read it? Page 40 "Picking grain on the Shabbat."rabdannoreply@blogger.com