tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post6143843952033924954..comments2024-02-05T00:22:41.291-08:00Comments on Orthodox Messianic Judaism: A Vision for One-Law HalachahUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-10553467262641155052013-06-03T13:26:28.943-07:002013-06-03T13:26:28.943-07:00Dan, I think it best we do as you suggest and &quo...Dan, I think it best we do as you suggest and "terminate this sorry conversation right now..."<br /><br />But, shalom brother, I meant no offense nor to be patronizing. ShalomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-7818061185792666002013-06-03T13:21:20.467-07:002013-06-03T13:21:20.467-07:00"Dan, you want to keep the traditions that le..."Dan, you want to keep the traditions that led to the diaspora and the destruction of the temple?"<br /><br />You don't know what I want or don't want to keep, don't you? you do not know me, do you? so stop building yourself a nice little straw-man, because it will not work with me, and stop this patronizing tone, or we can terminate this sorry conversation right now...<br /><br />"If you knew the Torah, you would not ask me these questions."<br /><br />So how come you cannot answer my question instead of shooting the messenger?Dan Benzvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411063743206730041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-49507222558333238882013-06-03T13:07:17.661-07:002013-06-03T13:07:17.661-07:00Dan, you want to keep the traditions that led to t...Dan, you want to keep the traditions that led to the diaspora and the destruction of the temple?<br /><br />Let that be between you and Yeshua.<br /><br />But, there is penalty for twisting the words of Yeshua to mean something he did not mean just so you can keep your traditions.<br /><br />Yeshua spoke out against the "traditions of men" and he NEVER spoke FOR them.<br /><br />It would have been easy to say, if it had been truth, that traditions of men are good.<br /><br />Rather, they are revered by men at the expense of the Torah.<br /><br />If you knew the Torah, you would not ask me these questions.<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-42068358585224872972013-06-03T11:49:25.778-07:002013-06-03T11:49:25.778-07:00"If there is no restriction on travelling in ..."If there is no restriction on travelling in winter as there is for a Sabbaths day journey (in tradition), your theory falls apart."<br /><br />Back at you...Matt. 23:16. Does the Temple actually sanctifies the gold, like Yeshua was arguing? Where is it in Torah?Dan Benzvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411063743206730041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-62781342736548416712013-06-03T10:33:10.883-07:002013-06-03T10:33:10.883-07:00"translation: I really cannot cite a specific..."translation: I really cannot cite a specific verse, I was just trying to throw some stuff against the wall hoping that something would stick..."<br /><br />Once again, here is your words:<br /><br />"It appears that Yeshua accepts the rabbinic tradition that the Temple and the altar has sanctifying authority, where would this be found in the Written Torah?"<br /><br />"Exodus 29:37<br />Seven days thou shalt make an atonement for the altar, and sanctify it; and it shall be an altar most holy: whatsoever toucheth the altar shall be holy."<br /><br />This proves the altar has sanctifying authority and whatsoever touches the altar shall be holy.<br /><br />I am not the Guru, Jesus is the Master and he told it plainly:<br /><br />"Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?"<br /><br />The altar sanctifies! It is Torah, not rabbinic tradition.<br /><br />"Let's see how better your job is than Tim's..."<br /><br />Rather, you should study Yeshua's words, HE is the prophet like unto Moses and HE spoke of these things. Had he not spoken you would be innocent in your errors. Because he came and spoke concerning these things, you have no excuse.<br /><br />Study Yeshua's words, they are spirit and eternal life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-42417867988354201502013-06-03T09:51:38.774-07:002013-06-03T09:51:38.774-07:00"Read the entire book, especially the chapter..."Read the entire book, especially the chapter 29 and you will realize the altar sanctifies. Wasn't your premise that the written Torah did not mention the sanctification of the altar and so we must believe Yeshua was not obeying the written Torah but accepting Rabinnic Tradition?<br /><br />You asked where in the written Torah it can be found? It can be found in Exodus."<br /><br />translation: I really cannot cite a specific verse, I was just trying to throw some stuff against the wall hoping that something would stick...<br /><br />Chapter 29 speaks of the priests being sanctified, not the lay people...Try again....<br /><br />Shabbat,<br /><br />Well, great Guru, teach us what Yeshua REALLY meant...Let's see how better your job is than Tim's....Dan Benzvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411063743206730041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-40073721133542323012013-06-03T09:28:03.274-07:002013-06-03T09:28:03.274-07:00"What verse? And who is touching the altar?&q..."What verse? And who is touching the altar?"<br /><br />Read the entire book, especially the chapter 29 and you will realize the altar sanctifies. Wasn't your premise that the written Torah did not mention the sanctification of the altar and so we must believe Yeshua was not obeying the written Torah but accepting Rabinnic Tradition?<br /><br />You asked where in the written Torah it can be found? It can be found in Exodus.<br /><br />"What is this? Are you beating your wife question? Don't bring red herrings in here, we are speaking about the Shabbat...."<br /><br />Your premise is to suppose that Yeshua said to pray your flight not be on the Sabbath Day, that this is not a Torah commandment, so you surmise it must mean Yeshua is following tradition.<br /><br />Yeshua also said pray your flight be not in winter.<br /><br />How can you believe his statement to pray our flight not be on Sabbath means he supports Jewish law, but ignore the part of the instruction concerning fleeing in winter?<br /><br />If there is no restriction on travelling in winter as there is for a Sabbaths day journey (in tradition), your theory falls apart.<br /><br />By the way, a red herring is when you put something out that is not the subject, to lure someone away from the truth.<br /><br />It's not a red herring to point to "the rest of the scripture" that you purposefully ignore just because you want to keep your traditions and I have proven your reason for doing so wrong.<br /><br />Your premise, which I see you got from Tim (I read his paper on tradition and he did a very poor job) is wrong.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-40583136945284411632013-06-03T06:56:59.530-07:002013-06-03T06:56:59.530-07:00"
Exodus 29 "...whatsoever toucheth the ..."<br />Exodus 29 "...whatsoever toucheth the altar shall be holy"."<br /><br />What verse? And who is touching the altar?<br /><br />"Why would Yeshua think "not in winter" to be a problem? Is there a prohibition against winter travel?"<br /><br />What is this? Are you beating your wife question? Don't bring red herrings in here, we are speaking about the Shabbat....Dan Benzvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411063743206730041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-21112437363859673632013-06-02T17:32:53.788-07:002013-06-02T17:32:53.788-07:00"It appears that Yeshua accepts the rabbinic ..."It appears that Yeshua accepts the rabbinic tradition that the Temple and the altar has sanctifying authority, where would this be found in the Written Torah?"<br /><br />Exodus 29 "...whatsoever toucheth the altar shall be holy".<br /><br />"Why would Yeshua think "flight on the Shabbat" to be a problem? Where in the Torah is there a prohibition for traveling on the Shabbat?"<br /><br />Why would Yeshua think "not in winter" to be a problem? Is there a prohibition against winter travel?<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-18513026534102690822013-06-02T08:36:43.571-07:002013-06-02T08:36:43.571-07:00Re: "hopefully someone better suited than Pe...Re: "hopefully someone better suited than Peter will step up."<br /><br />They have: see Torah Resource and TNN Online. Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03742087402667360623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-23100832706430830632013-05-31T15:59:15.476-07:002013-05-31T15:59:15.476-07:00Maybe? You make your doctrines on a maybe? Are y...Maybe? You make your doctrines on a maybe? Are you a Mormon?Dan Benzvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411063743206730041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-21584311374437293162013-05-31T15:51:32.443-07:002013-05-31T15:51:32.443-07:00Maybe there was a message in the dipping?
"J...Maybe there was a message in the dipping?<br /><br />"Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-31196694040775595782013-05-31T14:22:36.364-07:002013-05-31T14:22:36.364-07:00"Go ahead, kill the messenger...Been there, d..."Go ahead, kill the messenger...Been there, done that...So how are the Dodgers doing?"<br /><br />Dan, I'm sorry...I realize you were being serious, but Peter had to be his normal juvenile self and interject his silliness. <br /><br />Now, I don't want to participate in this blog further...but it's not because of you, even though you were rude to me I forgive you.<br /><br />Shabbat Shalom<br /><br />I'm done with this pitiful site, hopefully someone better suited than Peter will step up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-22143844755720420842013-05-31T14:19:02.538-07:002013-05-31T14:19:02.538-07:00"ignoring the fact we were speaking specifica..."ignoring the fact we were speaking specifically of Jewish man made Law...."<br /><br />Reclining, dipping, drinking wine at the Passover meal, ARE "specifically of Jewish man made law..."Dan Benzvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411063743206730041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-19647579755191990272013-05-31T14:13:35.186-07:002013-05-31T14:13:35.186-07:00Go ahead, kill the messenger...Been there, done th...Go ahead, kill the messenger...Been there, done that...So how are the Dodgers doing?Dan Benzvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411063743206730041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-67106212545332706862013-05-31T13:54:26.112-07:002013-05-31T13:54:26.112-07:00"What's wrong with you?"
OK, I can ..."What's wrong with you?"<br /><br />OK, I can see your not to be taken seriously nor is your website. You extend the LEGAL AUTHORITATIVE TRADITIONS we were speaking about to the fullest extent of what a tradition could be considered to be, ignoring the fact we were speaking specifically of Jewish man made Law....<br /><br />To be clear, I was not addressing if I have a "tradition" of using a hammer when I put a nail in, nor the "tradition of using toilet paper". But, I forget what type of man I am writing to, one who daily shows the typical behavior Yeshua condemned. I expect correctly your pitiful immature response. <br /><br />This website is full of division, personal attacks, false teaching, hatred and unforgiveness, no brotherly love found here, that's for sure, that's what I've found.<br /><br />"Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:<br /><br />I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.<br /><br />As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent"<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-2932131132522853802013-05-31T13:49:06.267-07:002013-05-31T13:49:06.267-07:00"Yeshua was walking in the temple, going abou..."Yeshua was walking in the temple, going about his fathers business, when men who were keeping the traditions of men hypocritically claiming to worship the "light" found him and tried to kill him because while they loved their traditions they hated the light and had murder in their hearts."<br /><br />If this is right, then why does John mentioned Hanukkah to begin with?...<br /><br />You are more the idiot I thought you are....Dan Benzvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411063743206730041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-72047293959457883412013-05-31T11:32:12.860-07:002013-05-31T11:32:12.860-07:00Anonymous,
Yes, an English translation of the Bib...Anonymous,<br /><br />Yes, an English translation of the Bible is a tradition of men. So are these:<br /><br />--speaking a language <br /><br />--using non-verbal body language<br /><br />--culture <br /><br />There's absolutely no way to avoid practicing traditions of men. <br /><br />What's wrong with you?Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03742087402667360623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-43958173606141294222013-05-31T11:21:14.413-07:002013-05-31T11:21:14.413-07:00Peter, no I don't keep Christmas or Easter or ...Peter, no I don't keep Christmas or Easter or traditional Thanksgiving or any other man's holiday. Using an English translation is not a "tradition", I don't say a blessing for food. You don't know me so you clearly are not qualified to say this:<br /><br />"Your life is FULL of traditions"<br /><br />YOUR life may be full of traditions, mine is not! Don't project YOUR life onto mine.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-78899412359578406192013-05-31T11:10:27.756-07:002013-05-31T11:10:27.756-07:00Anonymous,
RE: "you obviously are committed...Anonymous,<br /><br />RE: "you obviously are committed to keeping the traditions of men."<br /><br />And you don't follow any traditions of men? You don't practice Easter or Christmas? You don't use an English translation of the Bible? Do you say a blessing for your food? Where did you learn it? <br /><br />Your life is FULL of traditions. <br /><br />Dan is right: you are talking nonsense. <br /><br />Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03742087402667360623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-24247567632528748842013-05-31T10:54:57.038-07:002013-05-31T10:54:57.038-07:00"Right, He made a mistake, He thought it is P..."Right, He made a mistake, He thought it is Passover...."<br /><br />Your full of sarcasm and personal attacks, but no worries...<br /><br />This is how to interpret the mention of Hanukkah.<br /><br />Yeshua was walking in the temple, going about his fathers business, when men who were keeping the traditions of men hypocritically claiming to worship the "light" found him and tried to kill him because while they loved their traditions they hated the light and had murder in their hearts.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-13865844969963054982013-05-31T10:47:32.970-07:002013-05-31T10:47:32.970-07:00"Why don't you address each instant that ..."Why don't you address each instant that I listed?"<br /><br />Your first item, Yeshua's baptism if I am correct. You see this as Yeshua keeping traditions of men. If this was true Yeshua would have said the baptism he partook in that was by John, was just himself following traditions. But instead he asked this:<br /><br />"John’s baptism—where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or of human origin?”<br /><br />Now, I'm not going to go through every hoop of yours, you obviously are committed to keeping the traditions of men.<br /><br />I will say in closing, Passover is not a tradition and eating, dipping etc are normal parts of eating a meal. That traditions concerning meals sprang up and were enforced as law, that was also mentioned by Yeshua and he did not follow them or instruct his disciples to.<br /><br />"So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”<br /><br />You can't have it both ways, either Yeshua kept the traditions and instructed his disciples to live according to the traditions of the elders, <br /><br />or he did not!<br /><br />Shabbat Shalom!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-68271321074165634042013-05-31T07:15:44.341-07:002013-05-31T07:15:44.341-07:00"Sorry, I just don't see this Yeshua you ..."Sorry, I just don't see this Yeshua you mention in the scriptures."<br /><br />Then buy yourself a pair of glasses...I just showed you, but like all Christians, for you an old error is more comfortable than a new truth...<br /><br />"For instance, there is no proof Yeshua kept the traditions of Hanukkah as put forward here. The scripture only says he was in the temple during the man made holiday."<br /><br />Right, He made a mistake, He thought it is Passover....<br /><br />By you talking generalities you admit that you have no answer...Why don't you address each instant that I listed?<br /><br />"Or, can you point to one of his teachings that uphold a tradition?"<br /><br />Reclining, drinking wine, and dipping at the Passover meal...Are these Muslims traditions? Are these mentioned in the Written Torah?<br /><br />like I said, you talk nonsense....Dan Benzvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411063743206730041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-89139308785177295312013-05-31T05:53:04.815-07:002013-05-31T05:53:04.815-07:00Sorry, I just don't see this Yeshua you mentio...Sorry, I just don't see this Yeshua you mention in the scriptures. Isn't it true it's just your desire to see Yeshua keeping traditions of men that makes you PROJECT this onto his actions.<br /><br />For instance, there is no proof Yeshua kept the traditions of Hanukkah as put forward here. The scripture only says he was in the temple during the man made holiday. It is easy to PROJECT ones desire to keep this tradition onto Yeshua and insist he observed. A way to interpret the scripture, but not what the scripture actually says. <br /><br />"Yeshua PROMOTED by His lifestyle those traditions which comported with the letter and spirit of the mitzvot."<br /><br />Not sure how you get this idea. Yeshua kept the Torah, teaching and practice concerning how to do so would be needful and thus we have his sayings. <br /><br />Never, that I am aware of, does Yeshua point to a tradition and say "that is good and right, do it that way".<br /><br />Or, can you point to one of his teachings that uphold a tradition?<br /><br />Rather, I can point to his teachings that condemn several traditions. Did he condemn them all? Well, he did say those who were keeping them were blind leaders of the blind.<br /><br />"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me."<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143697192802548581.post-15169375797966063512013-05-31T05:30:31.971-07:002013-05-31T05:30:31.971-07:00Anonymous,
Dan is right--it is unwise to suggest ...Anonymous,<br /><br />Dan is right--it is unwise to suggest that Yeshua was against Jewish tradition when one need only glance at the New Testament to see that Yeshua was obedient to halacha which complemented the mitzvot. <br /><br />Yeshua was only against the traditions that conflicted with the letter or spirit of the mitzvot; Yeshua PROMOTED by His lifestyle those traditions which comported with the letter and spirit of the mitzvot.<br />Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03742087402667360623noreply@blogger.com