I can see now why this guy is among David Rudolph's favorite scholars and why he went to visit him:
"What, now, of those not elected? Those not elected cannot be expected not to be hurt by not being of the seed of Abraham, whom God loves above all others....The consolation of the gentiles is the knowledge that God also stands in relationship with them in the recognition and affirmation of their uniqueness. The choice, after all, is between a lofty divine love equally distributed to all without recognition of uniqueness and real encounter, which necessarily involves favorites but in which each is unique and addressed as such. If Abraham was especially loved by God, it is because God is a father who does not stand in a legal relationship to his children, which by its nature requires impartiality and objectivity. As a father, God loves his children and knows each one as who he is with his strengths and weaknesses, his virtues and vices. Because a father is not an impartial judge but a loving parent and because a human father is a human being with his own personality, it is inevitable that he will find himself more compatible with some of his children than others and, to speak very plainly, that he love some more than others. There is usually great reluctance on the part of parents to admit this, but it is a truth that must not be avoided. And it is also true that a father loves all his children, so that they all know of and feel the love they receive, recognizing that to substitute an impartial judge for a loving father would eliminate the preference for the specially favored but would also deprive all of them of a father. The mystery of Israel's election thus turns out to be the guarantee of the fatherhood of God toward all peoples, elect and nonelect, Jew and gentile," (pg. 64 of Wyschogrod's "The Body of Faith") [Emphasis added]
Wow, thanks, Wyschogrod. That's quite a consolation for gentiles. Not loved as much as Jews but...still loved.
Really?
Actually, I can see why Rudolph loves this guy. If I were Jewish, I'd love him too! What son wouldn't want to hear that he is the favorite son?
"Wow, thanks, Wyschogrod. That's quite a consolation for gentiles. Not loved as much as Jews but...still loved."
ReplyDeleteIt's not enough to be loved by G-d, that we have to demand equality in His love? I firmly believe that G-d loves Abraham, Moses and David more than He loves me. What's more, I have absolutely no issues with that. He may love me more than he loves somebody else (or not). Glory be to HaShem.
We serve a Holy G-d who said that He even hates some people. If He's is capable of hatred and doesn't owe anyone an explanation for his choices, is it too much of a stretch for Him to love someone to a degree He chooses?
“It's not enough to be loved by G-d, that we have to demand equality in His love? I firmly believe that G-d loves Abraham, Moses and David more than He loves me.”
DeleteThat's a sad thought and I hope you will one day aspire to something more than the bottom of the barrel...
Personally I trust what Yeshua said,
“Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.” (Matt 11:11)
Do I believe God love them more than me? No.
Why not? Because I have been blessed to live at a time when I can live in, experience and be part of the Kingdom of Heaven.
Wyschogrod's theology is terribly flawed for many reasons but ultimately it's this: God does not have the “love” problem; we do.
The issue is NEVER whether or not He loves us. The issue is ALWAYS whether or not we love Him.
Abraham, Moses and David were great examples of obedience to God and therefore were great lovers of God. It was that love shown through obedience that made them great in God's eyes and anyone can learn obedience.
On the opposite end, Esau despised his birthright and God hated him for it... once again the man, not God decided the level of relationship he would have with the Almighty.
We are the limiting factors, not our bloodline and not God.
"That's a sad thought and I hope you will one day aspire to something more than the bottom of the barrel..."
DeleteAndre .. when invited to someone's banquet, it's better to not sit yourself in the choicest seat at the table closest to the host, lest others who are more worthy have also been invited, while you are asked to get up and sit in the back. (paraphrasing Yeshua).
"We are the limiting factors, not our bloodline and not God. "
If we are truly and ultimately the limiting factors, none of us would have a chance, since no one seeks after G-d. The whole story of humanity is G-d looking beyond our obstinacy.
Humility= not sitting in the place of honor at a banquet
DeleteFalse humility (maybe foolishness)= not sitting at the place of honor after the host has sat you there
Ultimately, as you said (and I thought about saying but assumed it would be implied), it is God's grace that allows us to accomplish anything of value. That being said both Psalms and Romans (quoting the Psalm) make it clear it is the unredeemed that do not seek after God.
The redeemed, on the other hand, are made obvious by their transformation from glory to glory into the image of His Son (1 Cor 3:18).
Once we have been redeemed it becomes our responsibility to decide how great we want to be in the kingdom.
It's not about pretending to be more/less than we are... it's about accepting what God has said about us.
Your average person does not need help being reminded of their flaws and failures; we do however need constant reminding of the status,honor and glory God has given to us.
"False humility (maybe foolishness)= not sitting at the place of honor after the host has sat you there"
DeleteCan't think of anything worse than to presume to be already seating in the highest honor. Many will come before Messiah presuming this very thing, believers who did miracles in his name, and he will turn them away in disgrace.
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DeleteI agree Gene, that would be a terrible thing. Which is why Yeshua told us exactly what the condition would be that would cause Him to say that: you who practice lawlessness
Deletelet us all remember those words of warning and live up to the standard we have all been called to; God's Torah
Well, it is obvious He loves me more than He loves you.....
ReplyDeletein this article is the writer suggesting that our earthly fathers are the same as our Heavenly Father? can we compare a flawed father to our perfect Heavenly Father? maybe I didnt quite understand it. I wonder if I "demand" equality, I think what I demand is truth regarding my Heavenly Father I guess the only place to find this is in His word. I very much dislike men who assume to know the mind of G-d and assume to know what transpires in us who follow our G-d. We humans are complex beings how much more is the mind of our
ReplyDeleteG-d? at this point I'm grateful to be going Home to be with my Heavenly Father. I'm done with the nonsense that take us away from the only truth we need.
Question to the author, which he will no answer: What about the proselytes? Does He love them as much as he loves the natural jews or "as less" as he loves the gentiles?
ReplyDelete"Question to the author, which he will no answer: What about the proselytes? Does He love them as much as he loves the natural jews or "as less" as he loves the gentiles?"
ReplyDeleteMatheus, you talk of individuals, who may be either good, wicked or in between, more loved or less loved, while G-d speaks of His unfailing love for the Children of Jacob as one whole.
I don't doubt for a second that there are individual Gentiles that G-d loves way more than individual Jews. He may love you more than He loves me. However, what can't be denied is that with the nation of Israel G-d has a special relationship that is above all other nations. The Bible itself is ample evidence of this.
Gene, I agree with you that He loves Israel as a nation in a special way. But are the proselytes included in this nation for which he has a special love.
Delete"But are the proselytes included in this nation for which he has a special love."
DeleteMatheus, G-d does indeed love Gentiles who draw near to Him. I don't, however, believe that Gentiles become "Israel" (otherwise it would be pointless to speak of Israel if everyone is) nor lose their national distinctive or national blessings, but they do become citizens of G-d's Kingdom and thus are no longer strangers to Israel and her covenants.
I got it. But I am not talking about gentiles, I am talking about proselytes, according to the stablished halacha and stuff and jewish current understanding. Do they become part of this Israel and object of this special love, or are they on the other group that gets less love(this is just a way of saying it, didn't mean to downplay this view)? Or do you reject the way (non-messianic) judaism sees it today?
Delete"I got it. But I am not talking about gentiles, I am talking about proselytes, according to the stablished halacha and stuff and jewish current understanding. Do they become part of this Israel and object of this special love, or are they on the other group that gets less love(this is just a way of saying it, didn't mean to downplay this view)? Or do you reject the way (non-messianic) judaism sees it today?"
DeleteMatheus, if you are saying the Protestant or Catholic Christians - Hebrew Roots or not - are the same as proselytes to Judaism, than I would say not, they are not. However, first century Gentiles, that is before Christianity turned against the Jewish people and Judaism, who placed their faith in Israel's Messiah were indeed connected to Judaism and had brotherly relationship with Jews. In practice, they were like other G-d-fearers of the day.
I have put together a two part blog post titled "Are Christians/Gentile believers “spiritual Jews” or “Israelites?”. Check it out:
http://dailyminyan.com/2011/05/25/are-christiansgentile-believers-spiritual-jews-or-israelites-part-i/
I am not talking about christians, I am talking about proselytes to judaism - I am not even talking about the ones who believe in Yeshua - this is irrelevant for my question. My question is reagarding only those who convert to judaism either before or after He came. The question of the gentiles/G-d-fearers is another one.
DeleteIf the premise is that G-d has a special love for Israel because of the patriarchs (or any other reason) - not that He does not love gentiles - as his special covenant people, my question is if proselytes constitute another group inside Israel that is less loved than the physical descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and yet more loved than pagan gentiles (lets not consider G-d-fearers here, for the sake of the argument), or if they do not constitute any separate group and are object of this special love just as the descendents of the patriarchs. Have I made myself clear?
Understand that I am really trying to understand the place of the proselyte, and I would like your insights on this, since you seem to have a similar thought as the author, from which I would very much to listen from!
Thanks
Matheus... as I already made clear, the special affection G-d has for Israel the people/nation does not prevent Him from loving a particular individual, be he/she a Jew, a Gentile, proselyte, G-d-fearer, or a Christian (or any other category) more or less than some other individual.
DeleteThat is to say that simply being a Jew or NOT being one, doesn't in and of itself guarantee a particular level of G-d's love or focus of His affection. All that is being said is that Israel the People are beloved for the sake of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The nations benefit from this relationship too and are loved in their own unique ways.
With this in mind, I would not doubt for a second that there are some proselytes to Judaism that G-d loves more than some native-born Jews. G-d is not constrained in the least. The Bible also says that G-d loves a stranger, which is what a convert living among Jews is.
Gene, I understand that, but you I am not talking about individual or chritians, I am talking about the group of proselytes: are they or are they not part of the GROUP of Israelites which as group are object of thi special love?
Delete"I am talking about the group of proselytes: are they or are they not part of the GROUP of Israelites which as group are object of thi special love?"
DeleteMatheus, according to halacha, true proselytes to Judaism who were converted by a beit din become Jews in every respect, with all the accompanying benefits and responsibilities (which also means they can inherit the curses on themselves and their progeny for any future violation of the terms Mosaic Covenant). All the past proselytes to Judaism have effectively merged with the Jewish people, through complete assimilation and marriage.
Ok, thanks.
DeleteWhen you look at covenant membership, things change, don't you think so, Gene?
ReplyDelete"When you look at covenant membership, things change, don't you think so, Gene?"
DeleteAs they draw closer to Israel and her covenants through Messiah, the nations are gifted with a relationship with G-d as His children, along with the accompanying spiritual blessings.
Terrible scholarship, I was actually laughing towards the end of the article. Thanks for posting this, it is good to see where some of these people are coming from.
ReplyDeleteTechnically, if Wyschogrod's purpose was to paint a picture of some who have a higher calling than others, that would have been one thing, but to paint a picture of who God loves or doesn't love and who He loves even more, is foolish and stupid.
"Terrible scholarship, I was actually laughing towards the end of the article."
DeleteZion, if Wyschogrod scholarship makes you "laugh", the gulf dividing Jews and One Law Protestants is wide indeed.
Zion, if Wyschogrod scholarship makes you "laugh", the gulf dividing Jews and One Law Protestants is wide indeed.
DeleteI agree, if with teachers like Wyschogrod, it will only get worse.
"I agree, if with teachers like Wyschogrod, it will only get worse."
DeleteZion, OL-ers, like so many before them, have chosen to take a number and join the long line of those with grievances toward Jews.
Zion, OL-ers, like so many before them, have chosen to take a number and join the long line of those with grievances toward Jews.
DeleteGene, I am taking issue with a theological error or theological stupidity, this has nothing to do with his ethnicity. Making this an attack on Jews is not going to win your arguments. My love for the Jewish people does not change because of bad teachers.
"Gene, I am taking issue with a theological error or theological stupidity, this has nothing to do with his ethnicity."
DeleteZion, Israel is way more than mere "ethnicity" and you know it. The core problem OL-ers have with Israel, as is the case with many groups before them, be they Christians or Muslims, is with the very concept of G-d's choice of Israel and their ongoing role as the priestly people of G-d. This jealousy of nations toward Israel is the very essence of supersessionism.
Zion, Israel is way more than mere "ethnicity" and you know it. The core problem OL-ers have with Israel, as is the case with many groups before them, be they Christians or Muslims, is with the very concept of G-d's choice of Israel and their ongoing role as the priestly people of G-d. This jealousy of nations toward Israel is the very essence of supersessionism.
ReplyDeleteGene, you are changing the subject, and yes, Israel is more than just an ethnicity, but we are discussing a view point of a bad teacher. Second, OL'ers do not have a problem with Israel at all, I have no problem with Israel, what I have a problem with as well as, many other OL'ers, is bad theology, that fuels division such as Bilateral Ecclesiology.
This jealousy of nations toward Israel is the very essence of supersessionism.
Gene, I am not jealous of Jews, I don't want to be a Jew. I want to be who God created me to be, a gentile, and I am satisfied with that. I also what to enjoy my place within God's household. One Law theology does not hold to supersessionism, we hold to a covenant based theology, where we are part of God's household as gentiles, this is simply what scripture teaches.
Concerning supersessionism, Wyschogrod is shooting himself in the foot, saying things like: "God loves Jews more than Gentiles", is going to fuel this problem.
"we are discussing a view point of a bad teacher"
DeleteCalling a distinguished scholar a "bad teacher" based on a short excerpt (designed to provoke a response) on a blog is bad form, Zion.
Calling a distinguished scholar a "bad teacher" based on a short excerpt (designed to provoke a response) on a blog is bad form, Zion.
DeleteGene, if Wyschogrod, did not say what Peter quoted above, then I am sorry, but if he did, then he is a bad teacher, and is fueling supersessionism.
"is fueling supersessionism"
DeleteZion, how's that, do explain? Is Wyschogrod attempting to replace Israel with another entity or does he and other like-minded Jews have themselves to blame if others do that in response to such beliefs?
Jews have themselves to blame if others do that in response to such beliefs?
DeleteSure, anything you say can have a bad repercussion, such as: "God loves Jews more than Gentiles." It is not hard to see the end result.
"Sure, anything you say can have a bad repercussion, such as: "God loves Jews more than Gentiles." It is not hard to see the end result."
DeleteZion, it's like violating a girl and blaming it on her because to the rapist she was too beautiful to resist.
Zion, it's like violating a girl and blaming it on her because to the rapist she was too beautiful to resist.
DeleteNo Gene, it is like me devaluing another person in their face, and not expecting some form of retaliation whether verbally or physically, it is stupidity. It is a simple cause and effect. I am sorry this is so hard for you to understand.
Zion, and you call such an attitude worthy of followers of Yeshua - to retaliate for a mere belief? You should look at the history of antisemitism - you will find that the persecutors of the Jewish people always had "good reasons" and always blamed Jews for "provoking".
DeleteZion, and you call such an attitude worthy of followers of Yeshua - to retaliate for a mere belief? You should look at the history of antisemitism - you will find that the persecutors of the Jewish people always had "good reasons" and always blamed Jews for "provoking".
DeleteI never said we should do that, I am saying that is a repercussion of such. It would not matter if a gentile stated the above, it is still wrong. If you say something that is potentially going to offend or devalue someone regardless of ethnicity, you are potentially going to reap a consequence. This is common sense.
"If you say something that is potentially going to offend or devalue someone regardless of ethnicity, you are potentially going to reap a consequence. This is common sense."
DeleteZion, if I learned anything in my life is that Jews don't need to say a word to "reap a consequence". We tend offend just by our mere continuing existence. The "consequences" upon Jews from saying this or that is just an excuse. It's interesting that other groups routinely proclaim superiority of their beliefs and denounce those of others others (One Law comes to mind), yet no physical "consequences" are ever cautioned against them. I suppose that only applies toward Jews.
Gene, I don't know of any One Law groups that teach superiority... we teach a form of egalitarianism.
Delete"superiority of their beliefs", Zion (which in religion implies superiority over every area of being that matters).
DeleteCommon, Gene, you are not that stupid...Teaching (bad teaching)that God loves Jews more than He loves gentiles will provoke Gentiles to replace Israel in order to get more love from God....
ReplyDeleteDan, the Bible teaches that G-d chose Israel. G-d's sovereign choice alone has been enough to provoke others against His choices and it will culminate with all nations gathering against Jerusalem to make her cease being a nation.
DeleteThis is the pattern we see throughout scripture. Abel vs Kain, Isaac vs Ishmael, Jacob vs Esau, David vs Saul, etc. It's not limited to G-d's choice of Israel.
It's not limited to G-d's choice of Israel.
DeleteExactly, God has also elected or chosen gentiles who trust in Him. But we aren't talking about election, we are talking about does God love Jews more than gentiles, you seem to continually get lost in the discussion.
it will culminate with all nations gathering against Jerusalem to make her cease being a nation.
DeleteSo this means all the gentiles who believe in Messiah will be there to fight against Jerusalem?
"So this means all the gentiles who believe in Messiah will be there to fight against Jerusalem?"
DeleteInteresting question, Zion. Did Gentiles who claimed to believe in Messiah attack Jews and Jerusalem in the past?
Interesting question, Zion. Did Gentiles who claimed to believe in Messiah attack Jews and Jerusalem in the past?
DeleteYes, so the conclusion is no gentiles will be saved from the nations after all.
"Yes, so the conclusion is no gentiles will be saved from the nations after all."
DeleteZion, sure they will be saved:
"Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the L-RD Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles." (Zechariah 14:16)
Lol... so I guess one day we will meet on the battlefield and after we end up killing each other, we can enjoy a nice meal together.
Delete"Lol... so I guess one day we will meet on the battlefield and after we end up killing each other, we can enjoy a nice meal together."
DeleteHa, good one:)
(For some reason I imagine people running toward each other with swords and spears, instead of assault rifles and rocket launchers, like they probably will.)
Gene, what you and the rest of the Alpha-Bet soup organizations do not understand, is that God has a plan of redemption for mankind (not only for Jews),and He accomplishing it through covenants. Your crowd, instead of talking who is or who is not a covenant member, only talk of the difference between Jews and Gentiles, because this is the only way they can support their idiotic doctrine of BE and DI.
ReplyDeleteLet me ask you something, After we both die, you and me, are we still going to remain Jews? Will there be a separation of Jews and Gentiles in the Kingdom? will God love you more because you want to remain a Jew, and love me less if I only want to be a follower of Messiah?
"After we both die, you and me, are we still going to remain Jews?"
DeleteOf course! (At least I will.) Is not the resurrected Yeshua still the Lion of the Tribe of Judah and King of the Jews?
"Will there be a separation of Jews and Gentiles in the Kingdom?"
You confusing "separation" with uniqueness and distinction. I am very different than my wife (thank G-d) but we are part of the same team, working toward the common goal.
"Will God love you more because you want to remain a Jew, and love me less if I only want to be a follower of Messiah?"
That I don't know. However, you will probably have a feeling of deep remorse.
"Of course! (At least I will.) Is not the resurrected Yeshua still the Lion of the Tribe of Judah and King of the Jews?"
ReplyDeleteWishful thinking...But you are not resurrected yet....
"You confusing "separation" with uniqueness and distinction."
Then, I have a good teacher..His name is Kinzer...He adds another component to this, "Solidarity with Israel." For obvious reason I don't need this particular component...I guess you forgot that God started the whole thing with a certified Gentile? Abraham?
"That I don't know. However, you will probably have a feeling of deep remorse."
I guess Eph. 2:14-16 is chopped liver for you...
You believe that Messiah does away with Jewish identity and use Eph. 2:14-16 to prove it. Others likewise misuse Eph. 2:14-16 to make it say that Messiah did away with Torah. Both you and they are mistaken.
DeleteThe Galut is taking through you again. We (you and me) are Jews, nothing can change it, and I am very comfortable with it. What you seem to not understand is that Eph. 2:14-16 teaches that putting our Jewish identity first, instead of our identity in Messiah is wrong...
ReplyDeleteUntil you can understand this, you will always fall for the stuff that charlatans of the BE and DI crowed put out....
Well said, I have come to notice this over the course of time from BE groups, the Messiah takes a back seat to Jewish identity.
Delete"Eph. 2:14-16 teaches that putting our Jewish identity first, instead of our identity in Messiah is wrong."
DeleteChristianity has historically made Jews choose - either be Jewish (with everything that entails, especially practice of Judaism) OR follow Jesus - you can't have both. Well, I am here to tell you that I reject such an idea as a hellish falsehood antithetical to both G-d's election of Israel as well as the Jewish Messiah.
"I have come to notice this over the course of time from BE groups, the Messiah takes a back seat to Jewish identity."
DeleteIt's ironic you say this, Zion, as a similar accusation is frequently thrust against the One Law crowd by the mainstream Christians - "Messiah takes a back seat to Torah and to their identity as "Israelites".
It's ironic you say this, Zion, as a similar accusation is frequently thrust against the One Law crowd by the mainstream Christians - "Messiah takes a back seat to Torah and to their identity as "Israelites".
DeleteAnyone who considers the Torah to be relevant... from a Christian perspective is teaching a form of bondage or works based salvation, you can't take what Christians say concerning the Law, seriously. As for BE making Jewish identity more important than identity found in Messiah is a serious issue.
"you can't take what Christians say concerning the Law, seriously."
DeleteForgive me, Zion, if I feel the same way about the One Law crowd and their opinion of how much importance a Jew places on their identity. I hope you understand.
Forgive me, Zion, if I feel the same way about the One Law crowd and their opinion of how much importance a Jew places on their identity. I hope you understand.
DeleteOf course, you can believe whatever you like... just don't expect people to agree with you.
"Of course, you can believe whatever you like... just don't expect people to agree with you."
DeleteIf I expected people to agree with me, I wouldn't hang around here, now would I? :)
If I expected people to agree with me, I wouldn't hang around here, now would I? :)
DeleteMaybe you are traveling land and sea to make one convert? :D
"Christianity has historically made Jews choose - either be Jewish (with everything that entails, especially practice of Judaism) OR follow Jesus - you can't have both. Well, I am here to tell you that I reject such an idea as a hellish falsehood antithetical to both G-d's election of Israel as well as the Jewish Messiah."
ReplyDeleteCommon, Gene, what does "Christianity" have to do with Scriptures?
"Common, Gene, what does "Christianity" have to do with Scriptures?"
DeleteDan, my point is that the views you hold are much the same as historic Christianity in regards to Jews who believe in Yeshua (e.g. being a Jew is no longer relevant since the coming of Jesus) and that you are just as antagonistic to Judaism (well, may be a bit more vitriolic than most Christians dare to be).
OK, Gene, you asked for it again...What Judaism you have in mind?
ReplyDeleteOrthodox, who elevate the words of the Rabbis over the word of God?
Reform, who ordains gay rabbis and perform same sex marriage?
Reconstructionist, who took God completely out of the picture?
Or maybe Conservative, who are still sitting on the fence, not deciding which way to go?
What do these, have to do with Scriptures?
Dan, are you the one to speak against Judaism? Does your One Law/Two-House/Hebrew Roots religion have a good track record?
DeleteOL is not 2H nor is it Hebrew roots. only in your imagination....
ReplyDelete"OL is not 2H nor is it Hebrew roots. only in your imagination...."
DeleteAll three freely intermix and found in most groups of "independent messianics". The owners of blogs where you find most of your supporters and coreligionists - this one and Judah's - hold to TH beliefs.
BTW, Gene, You yourself has Hebrew roots...Or you are going to deny it?
ReplyDelete"BTW, Gene, You yourself has Hebrew roots...Or you are going to deny it?"
DeleteI has not such thing :P
"All three freely intermix and found in most groups of "independent messianics". The owners of blogs where you find most of your supporters and coreligionists - this one and Judah's - hold to TH beliefs."
ReplyDeleteThen, they cannot call themselves OL, because OL does not teach TH...
Sorry, Peter and Judah, you guys are out of Dan's religion:)
Delete"I has not such thing :P"
ReplyDeleteYes, you has...You bought it in the tzatzkes store, remember?
Oh, that one! Well, it was defective and had to be returned.
Delete"Sorry, Peter and Judah, you guys are out of Dan's religion:)"
ReplyDeleteGene, maybe you don't know it, but before OL the TH was filling MJ UMJC's style....
"Sorry, Peter and Judah, you guys are out of Dan's religion:)"
ReplyDeleteYou know very well, Gene, that Judah calls himself a Messianic Jew, just like you and I, and Peter's blog here, is named "orthodox Messianic Judaism." Are they not MJ's?
Be careful, Judah is 6'4".....
"You know very well, Gene, that Judah calls himself a Messianic Jew, just like you and I, and Peter's blog here, is named "orthodox Messianic Judaism." Are they not MJ's?"
DeleteDan, in your religion, it's doesn't matter what they are or what they call themselves, as being a Jew, real or imagined, is of little consequence. Same as with the rest of Christianity's view of Jews.
"Be careful, Judah is 6'4"
I think he's taller than that.
I've heard tell that Judah is seven feet tall...and that he can lift 500 pounds right over his head!!
DeleteAnd in your religion, Gene, any goy deceiver who wants to become a rabbi all they need is to cut their shwantzel and pooff they become Jews...
ReplyDeleteAlso, the congregation of your religion is crawling with TH even today after you guys made a "selection..."
"And in your religion, Gene, any goy deceiver who wants to become a rabbi all they need is to cut their shwantzel and pooff they become Jews..."
DeleteAt least this means that there's another Jew added, even if he's "fake" (according to you), instead of Jews simply disappearing into the abyss of the One Law Protestantism.
(That said, while many Gentiles have become affected, I don't worry too much about OL direct assimilationist effect on Jews - you are the only OL yid that I have encountered and I doubt there will be many after you.)
At least this means that there's another Jew added, even if he's "fake" (according to you), instead of Jews simply disappearing into the abyss of the One Law Protestantism.
DeleteLol, if you are ok with fake Jews, then you are a perfect candidate for TH. Dan was right...
(That said, while many Gentiles have become affected, I don't worry too much about OL direct assimilationist effect on Jews - you are the only OL yid that I have encountered and I doubt there will be many after you.)
Considering there is no assimilation, I don't worry about OL effect on Jews either, because from a OL perspective Jews get to remain Jews while gentiles get to remain gentiles, we don't make up fake conversion scenarios like your group... funny how that works. :D
"because from a OL perspective Jews get to remain Jews while gentiles get to remain gentiles"
DeleteBut in practice (which is primarily a Sola Scriptura Torah Observance Light mixed with Evangelicalism), there's no difference, which is the very definition of OL. So, assimilation of Jews - were there any to be had in OL - is inevitable.
But in practice (which is primarily a Sola Scriptura Torah Observance Light mixed with Evangelicalism), there's no difference, which is the very definition of OL. So, assimilation of Jews - were there any to be had in OL - is inevitable.
DeleteTorah Observance in OL ranges from those who adopt a large amount of Oral Tradition to those who adopt a more conservative approach, and OL does not mean it is completely the same for Jew and Gentile, the definition is based off the Torah, and it is not 100% the same. A Gentile cannot rule over the house of Israel and a Gentile cannot own land, and a gentile cannot etc... but within a congregation there is more equality, sadly you would not fit in very well, because in a OL congregation, Jews are not loved more by God than Gentiles, you will have to stick with a minority group to uphold that belief.
"because in a OL congregation, Jews are not loved more by God than Gentiles, you will have to stick with a minority group to uphold that belief."
DeleteYou mean to say that you guys are so advanced in your theology, you tell G-d who to love and how much?:)
No, Wyschogrod does that, I agree with you that it is foolish to do such...
DeleteZion, it's unfortunate that you have chosen a by now well-worn dismissive and reactionary approach to Israel's unique relationship with G-d, instead of seeing it for what it is - a conduit for G-d's love and assurance of his faithfulness, from His first born (Israel) toward all of the nations.
DeleteGene you are confusing election with love. I don't know if this is intentional or naive, regardless I don't deny Israel's calling or chosen purpose or I would have no faith to begin with.
Delete"Gene you are confusing election with love."
DeleteI don't, because the scriptures speak of Israel election as G-d's expression of love. "Beloved for the sake of forefathers", "I have loved you", and of course this verse:
"Since you are precious and honored in my sight, and because I love you, I will give people in exchange for you, nations in exchange for your life." (Isaiah 43:4)
Albert Einstein once said: "everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but no one is entitled to be wrong with the facts."
ReplyDeleteYou encountered at least one more Jew (albit fake, like you said) the head of FFOZ, no?
That said, FYI there are more, but they still outnumbered by the Fake Jews in MJ, UMJC style, and the other Christian organization that masquerades as Messianic, MJAA...
"That said, FYI there are more..."
DeleteDan, knock it off, your poodle doesn't count, even if you did bris him when he was 8 days old! :p
"But in practice (which is primarily a Sola Scriptura Torah Observance Light mixed with Evangelicalism),"
ReplyDeleteYou are describing MJ here, right?
Must of what calls itself "MJ" is no different than OL in practice or in Jew/Gentile ratio, so you are correct there.
Delete"Dan, knock it off, your poodle doesn't count, even if you did bris him when he was 8 days old! :p"
ReplyDeleteIt is a female, Gene...I always said you are blind....LOL!
"It is a female, Gene...I always said you are blind....LOL!"
DeleteWell, now "she" is - you should have let the profession mohel do it!
Hey just a question based on Rom 11:17-21:
ReplyDeleteWhat would constitute arrogance toward the branches?
What is the root spoken of here?
Sorry, I have no theology background..
What would constitute arrogance toward the branches?
ReplyDeleteAny form of anti-semitism and any form of supersessionism, and the most obvious would be the fact, that the gentiles have no faith or covenant stance without the Jews, that we are party to the covenant made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob only because of their election from God and now he has chosen gentiles as well, we can't do this or be part of Israel if Israel no longer exist... In fact, if gentiles ignore Israel or act as if they have no responsibility to Israel or that they are the new Israel replacing the old instead of being party or joining, they might as well throw away their faith, as Paul says, if God did not spare the Natural Branches(the Jews), He definitely will not spare the Wild Branches(the gentiles)... Yet Christianity has done this exactly, for the past 2000 years and still continues to, thus gentiles have done what Paul warned against.
What is the root spoken of here?
The root represents the Patriarchs(Abraham, Isaac and Jacob), there are many points to prove this, but one that stands out is found in the simple fact that Jews are naturally part of this tree, while gentiles are not naturally part of this tree, there is a descendency at the root of the tree. Jews are born into covenant with God, while gentiles are not, we can join through faith in Messiah, but we are not born into covenant.