This is just a musing from today...
There are Messianic prophecies in the Torah where the Messiah comes as a suffering servant who dies for the sins of Israel and then there are Messianic prophecies in the Torah where the Messiah comes as a victorious King riding in the clouds.
The Torah never says that this will be two different Messiahs. It leaves room for the possibility that there is ONE Messiah who dies and comes back to life.
But non-Messianic Judaism closes the door on that option.
Why?
The concept of Moshiach ben Yosef comes directly from Obadiah 1:18.
ReplyDeleteObadiah 1:18 And the house of Jacob shall be fire and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau shall become stubble, and they shall ignite them and consume them, and the house of Esau shall have no survivors, for the Lord has spoken.
So the concept of Moshiach ben Yosef is not a "Rabbinic invention." It's right in the Tanach!
So please, stop making false accusations against Rabbinic Judaism.
Shalom
Unknown,
DeleteMy eyesight must be going. Can you please point out to me where in that passage it says "Moshiach ben Yosef."
Peter, I cannot.
DeleteMy turn!
Can you show me in the entirety of the Tanach where the phrase "Moshiach ben David" is used?
No?
That's what I thought!
What is your standard for delineating which passages refer exclusively to Moshiach ben David?
You have none as far as I can, other than your own confirmation bias for your false messiah, jesus...
You have none as far as I can tell***
DeleteYou have no standard for delineating which passages refer to Moshiach ben David exclusively...
Unknown,
DeleteRE: "What is your standard for delineating..."
Why would I delineate at all? Why would I assume that the Prophets are talking about multiple Messiahs which need to be delineated?
Peter, you are either misunderstanding my question or you are deliberately avoiding answering it...
DeleteWhat is your standard for determining that a passage refers to the Messiah son of David or not?
There are plenty of verses in the Tanach that really don't speak exclusively about the specific individual of the Messiah son of David.
What is your standard for determining that Isaiah 53 must refer only to the Messiah son of David? I already showed you that the Pshat of Isaiah 53 refers to the suffering servant as Israel, not just the Messiah.
Can we agree on this obvious point?
Shalom
Unknown,
DeleteYour question assumes a conclusion that it has no right to assume. This is a famous fallacy known as "begging the question" (a.k.a. "circular reasoning"). You ask me to provide an hermeneutical standard for differentiating between ben Yoseph prophecies and ben David prophecies. But your question assumes that there are these 2 different Messiahs! And you failed to prove your dual Messiah theory! I asked you to show me this distinction. You responded, "I cannot." Yet you continue assuming your conclusion is true and you insist that I accept it as true.
Stop the circular reasoning.
Logic demands that you open the door to a Messianic possibility: the Prophets speaking of ONE Messiah with a DUAL mission.
Peter, let's get one thing straight:
DeleteIt was YOU who brought up Moshiach ben Yosef...NOT ME!
I am not asking you about Moshiach ben Yosef. Forget about that.
I am asking you about Moshiach ben David.
What is your standard for determining that a passage refers exclusively to the Messiah son of David or not?
Isaiah 53 is a good example. The Rabbis and I believe that the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 refers to Israel, Messiah included. This is based upon exegetical context concerning the fact that the servant is referred to as Israel/Jacob multiple times throughout the the servant songs.
Can we agree on this?
Unknown,
DeleteRE: "It was YOU who brought up Moshiach ben Yosef...NOT ME!"
I laughed when I saw that. It sounds like what the kids say, "YOU started it!"
RE: "Isaiah 53 is a good example. The Rabbis and I believe that the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 refers to Israel, Messiah included. This is based upon exegetical context concerning the fact that the servant is referred to as Israel/Jacob multiple times throughout the the servant songs. Can we agree on this?"
(1) Potential Issue: Can Messiah in Isaiah 53 be read as a metaphor for Israel? Yes. For me, this has never been an issue;
(2) Present Issue: Dual Messiah (Yoseph/David) or Single Messiah with Dual Mission (Yeshua)? You have previously cited to Dual Messiah theory and rejected even the slightest possibility that Single Messiah possibility exists.
1. Present issue: The servant is referred to as ISRAEL/JACOB throughout the servant songs, individuating that the Pshat of Isaiah 53 refers to Israel, Messiah included. This means that the suffering of the servant is not exclusive to the Messiah, which you appear to admit, albeit in a backwards manner...
DeleteSo in a backwards sort of fashion, you have admitted that the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 is not exclusive to the Messiah, thus justifying the fact that Israel is the servant of Isaiah 53, Messiah included.
With this said, it makes no sense to use Isaiah 53 as a "proof text" for the Messiah, since you have admitted that the suffering servant is not exclusive to the Messiah, just as the Tanach and Chazal state!
1. Present issue: The servant is referred to as ISRAEL/JACOB throughout the servant songs, indicating** that the Pshat of Isaiah 53 refers to Israel, Messiah included. This means that the suffering of the servant is not exclusive to the Messiah, which you appear to admit, albeit in a backwards manner...
DeleteSo in a backwards sort of fashion, you have admitted that the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 is not exclusive to the Messiah, thus justifying the fact that Israel is the servant of Isaiah 53, Messiah included.
With this said, it makes no sense to use Isaiah 53 as a "proof text" for the Messiah, since you have admitted that the suffering servant is not exclusive to the Messiah, just as the Tanach and Chazal state!
The paradigm of both Messiahs being one and the same cannot, must not, be considered, else an admission of error/wrong would have to be made. Then the fatal flaw of traditions of men would be exposed...
ReplyDeleteYet, Jews, by the droves, are flocking to Yeshua and suddenly seeing this very Jewish Rabbi who kept and taught Torah in the context the metaphors that led up to His first coming. Yosef ben Israel!! Perfect picture!
Amazingly, at the same time, Christians by the hundreds of thousands are suddenly turning back to the ancient path of Torah!
Only the Ruach could be orchestrating these moves at this late hour!
May Abba be glorified in Israel!
Amein!
DeleteIs the pshat of Isaiah 53 referring to the messiah?
ReplyDelete"Is the pshat of Isaiah 53 referring to the messiah?"
DeleteBefore I became a believer I also wrestled with Isaiah 53, so I decided to ask my people, the Jews. I read the passage to about 1000 Jews and asked them who do they think the passage is speaking of, I received a unified unanimous reply: "This is not Jesus." From about 1000 replies no other was forthcoming. I then told each one: "I did not say it is Jesus, but you just did." And that went quite far in me becoming a believer.
Gifted, the Pshat of Isaiah 53 refers to Israel, not just the Messiah. We know this because of the context concerning who the servant is throughout the servant songs:
ReplyDeleteIsaiah 41:8-9
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, “You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off.”
Isaiah 44:1
But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen!
Isaiah 44:21
Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.
Isaiah 45:4
For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I called you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.
Isaiah 48:20
Go out from Babylon, flee from Chaldea, declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim it, send it out to the end of the earth; say, “The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!”
Isaiah 49:3
And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”
I think Messianics and Christians interpret verses based on what the Apostles
ReplyDeletebelieved. Sometimes unusual.
Unknown,
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. I just wanted to see what other perception are.
Gifted, if you an Peter both agree that the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 does not exclusively refer to the Messiah, then why do believers in jesus constantly berate Jews with this passage, insisting that it can only apply to the Messiah exclusively?
DeleteIt appears that we all agree that the suffering servant does not exclusively refer to the Messiah. Knowing this, it makes little sense to me why it is used as a "proof text" to champion their false messiah.
Clearly the identity of the suffering servant is not exclusive to the Messiah.
Unknown,
ReplyDeleteI can't reason for those folk. Context without pretext is no text. Now when something is taught, the human mind process that information in many ways. Some question. Some accept it the way it's been taught. Let's just say they accept what has been taught.
Christians claim Jesus is the messiah, then they claim that the holy spirit is also the messiah, then they claim that Jesus is coming back as the messiah.
ReplyDeleteChristians claim to be guided by the holy spirit, they claim he is the comforter that would guide them into all truth, yet Christians are more divided and confused than ever, this post and billion others like theses is the proof.
Jesus was the anointed one, no doubt about that, but Jesus said that another one like him, another one the same as him was coming. Christians completely ignore this, and this is the key to understanding the "second messiah coming"
It's not two messiahs, it's two men annoyed to speak for God. Jesus the man is dead, and there is one more coming, the one the Jews are waiting for.
So instead of you arguing and hammering the same old point again and again, why don't you just admit that you don't know what you are talking about, and accept the fact that the Jews are waiting for s literal messiah that is a man, born here on earth and not some supernatural being coming down from a literal heaven.
I guess you have blinded Christians so much with the false doctrine of the holy spirit, that Jews are not even aware that Jesus himself said, that another one like him was coming, and that this one coming was the one that was going to guide you into all truth, and that he was the one that was going to give the world convincing evidence regarding sin, righteousness and judgement.
The Parakletos is here.