Friday, September 14, 2012
Instances Where Yeshua Violated MODERN Rabbinic Halachah
So Gene asked a great question (I love a good question). He asked:
"OK, Peter - now, please give me some specific Pharisaic halachic precepts that Yeshua rejected that set aside a specific Torah commandment. Then, please specify the where I can find that halachic precept in the Oral Law today (so that we know that was indeed a codified halacha, and not simply a sinful behavior of individual). Let's see how many you can come up with from the New Testament."
And so I gave him a few examples in my response:
"Gene,
Here are some examples:
In John 5, it's Shabbat and Yeshua and a man are in a public domain. Yeshua tells him to pick up his bed and walk. This was a violation of first century halacha because it says:
"so the Jewish leaders said to the man who had been healed, 'It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat.”
It's also a violation of modern halacha:
"82:1 In the public domain and in a semi-public domain it's forbidden to carry (on Shabbat) any object four cubits. Whether one carries it, or throws it or passes it. To carry it, in several stages, each one less than four cubits, is also forbidden." (Shulchan Aruch)
I could go on. Shulchan Aruch says:
"91:1 One who feels discomfort, but makes an effort to carry on like a healthy person, it's forbidden for him to receive any medical treatment even something that doesn't involve (biblical) prohibited activity. Even to apply oil whether by himself or by another or even by a Gentile."
But Yeshua violated this all the time, healing people who didn't have immediately life-threatening illnesses. In Luke 14, Yeshua healed someone who had dropsy. Dropsy is not immediately life-threatening and Yeshua didn't cite to the principle of pikuach nefesh in order to heal him. Rather, he points out the flaw in the Rabbinic rationale by showing that even they would help out an animal on the Sabbath so how much more should they help out a human being. Nevertheless, as cited above, when pikuach nefesh doesn't apply, Rabbinic halachah (law) says that YOU ARE FORBIDDEN TO GIVE MEDICAL TREATMENT".
I can go on and I will go on. I'm going to compile a little list. But I don't have the time right now. So I'll give more examples after Shabbat.
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"One who feels discomfort, but makes an effort to carry on like a healthy person"
ReplyDelete"But Yeshua violated this all the time, healing people who didn't have immediately life-threatening illnesses"
Peter, I think "feeling discomfort" doesn't quite describe being paralyzed or being blind from birth, does it? Also, Yeshua did not WORK like a doctor would to heal someone - all his healing were miraculous acts of G-d (no different that Peter shadow that healed sick being "work:). No work was involved. The accusations against him were false and miraculous healing does not contradict modern halacha or whatever halacha. The accusations were not brought up against Yeshua during trial so do not appear to have violated any ancient halacha either.
Gene,
DeleteRe: "Peter, I think "feeling discomfort" doesn't quite describe being paralyzed or being blind from birth, does it? "
Show me in this passage where it indicates the man's LIFE was in IMMINENT danger.
Re: "No work was involved."
Not according to Rabbinic law. And that's really what we're talking about here, isn't it? Or are you just wanting to wax philosophical?
Re: "The accusations against him were false and miraculous healing does not contradict modern halacha or whatever halacha."
I just proved to you where it contradicts modern halacha.
"Show me in this passage where it indicates the man's LIFE was in IMMINENT danger. "
DeleteNEVER FORGET THAT G-D HEALED THAT PERSON THROUGH A MIRACLE. NOT WORK WAS INVLOVED ON ANYONE'S PART. (shouting off)
"Not according to Rabbinic law."
Show me where does G-d healing someone through a miracle is a contradiction to Rabbinic law?
"I just proved to you where it contradicts modern halacha."
See my point right above.
Gene,
DeleteWas Yeshua a man? Was He a Jew?
Yeshua healings were done by HaShem directly, through faith. That's why one needed faith to see G-d at work - Yeshua made this point over and over. Am I correct?
DeleteYou're incorrect. It came directly from Yeshua:
DeleteLuke 8:46 "And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me."
He did the healing directly.
That word "virtue" incidentally is "dynamis" which means power. The power came from Yeshua. I should've made that more clear.
DeleteHere's a test for you, Peter: did Yeshua do any halachically forbidden work when he healed centurion's servant without ever going to see him?
DeleteGene,
DeleteThat situation involves pikuach nefesh, a principle well established in Mishnah--so well in fact that it applies even in cases of doubt. So obviously a justification applies to the Centurion's daughter.
I am talking about the way he did it - was that "work"?
DeleteThose handy quotes you put around "work" let me know that you're looking for the Rabbinic definition of "work." And I just cited for you where the Shulchan Aruch includes medical treatment in the definition of "work." So according to the RABBIS, Yeshua did "work." However, also according to the Rabbis, in the case of the Centurion's daughter, the principle of pikuach nefesh applies since she was gravely ill.
DeleteBut you'll note that I didn't cite the case of the Centurion's daughter as a case in which Yeshua violated Rabbinic halachah.
Can one violate halachic prohibition of not working on Shabbat merely by telling someone that "your servant has been healed" without so much as lifting your own finger to heal that person or being anywhere near them? To claim that miralous healings by the direct act G-d enacted by nothing more than someone's faith somehow breaks halacha of "work" pushes boundaries of laughable.
DeleteGene,
DeleteYou are simply highlighting the absurdity of the halacha that states that we are not to render medical aid on Shabbat to one who is merely uncomfortable and not gravely ill.
Gene, if you were uncomfortable on Shabbat and it was within my power to heal you, I would certainly risk offending the Rabbis in order to make you comfortable, my friend. I'm serious. To NOT help you, that would be wrong. THAT'S what's laughable, this absurd idea that you can't help a fellow human being on Shabbat. Ha! Ridiculous!
If you answer "yes" to that above one, then I'll know that your disagreement with me on this issue is purely polemical.
ReplyDeleteGene,
ReplyDeleteJohn 5:17. " My Father is working until Now, and I myself am working."
So much for you idiotic argument.....
Telling someone "you are healed" does not qualify as halachically forbidden "work", no matter how much you hate Judaism.
Delete"Go," said Yeshua, "YOUR FAITH has healed you."
Your constant childish insults accomplish nothing but show everyone that you are a person who is not to be taken seriously. A brutish person who cannot control his tounge achieves the opposite of what he intends - he only insults himself.
DeleteDan,
DeleteBe gentle. I know you're upset with him (I am too) but I know you also love him as a brother. Plus, it'd be awesome to win Gene over to our side. It won't happen if we call him an "idiot." Which, let's face it, Gene is no idiot. He's very, very intelligent. And I really feel like this whole questioning process IS blessed. I wouldn't have even thought of writing this post if Gene hadn't posed the question. I say we need him very much.
Sorry, Peter. Gene is a notorious flame thrower. I only answer him in kind. His only goal is to show how stupid we are regardless of the truth of Scriptures.
DeleteDan,
DeleteThe better part of valour is discretion.