That last post was a mental warm-up exercise for the review I'm about to do of McKee's wonderful book entitled "Acts 15 For the Practical Messianic." Such a great resource! And my apologies for taking so long to review it. I have time off at the end of the week which I plan on devoting to it.
I'm going to review every book published by One-Law scholars. It's just a matter of time. Eventually I'll get to Torah Resource. I love our One-Law scholars so much! G-d has truly blessed our movement!
To those who feel excluded...know that you are not alone. To those that are testing G-d by excluding your brothers from fellowship...know that you will be alone.
Shalom to the Israel of G-d,
Peter
Woop-dee-doo...Just what I needed, another Acts 15 interpretation......
ReplyDelete"To those who feel excluded...know that you are not alone."
ReplyDeleteGosh, Peter, by continuously harping on this stuff, that is by presenting a picture of the few Jews believers as the oppressors and Gentiles as the oppressed and the excluded, you are setting up a culture of resentment against "the excluders" (i.e. the "Jews"). I fear that it will eventually develop into an outright hostility toward Jewish believers and Jews in general. It's only a natural progression, as history shows us so clearly.
Gene,
DeleteI responded to you at the bottom. The comment about symbiosis.
Gene, how about you guys hostility towards OL People?
ReplyDeleteWe call it equal weights and measures?
Exactly, this does go both ways, I always laugh when people think this is a one sided road.
DeleteOK... let's see how it usually works.
Delete- Gentile majority feels that Jews cheat them out of something and want exercise excessive control.
- Jews deny having an agenda against the Gentiles, just want to be left in peace in their small communities.
- Jews are judged guilty regardless. Whatever happens to Jews, they "brought that on themselves".
How about this , Gene...
ReplyDeleteGentile Majority and Jewish Minority had a good time within MJ.
Jewish Minority decided that to many Gentiles (Majority)within Mj is too dangerous.
Hashivenu, BE and the rest of the Alpha-bet soup telling Gentiles they should stay in the Churches...
Many Gentiles leave MJ to form their own Messianic communities.
MJ, UMJC style say the Gentiles brought it on themselves....
A more accurate description....
Dan, as I said, Jews will be found at fault no matter what.
DeleteBTW, Hashivenu and BE account for a miniscule sub-set of MJ congregations, while OL and TH movements started long ago, driven by the ages-old desire of some Christians to be "Israel". This began long before Kinzer's book came out and anyone heard of BE. So, to somehow blame it on them is anachronistic to say the least.
But, as I said, Jews will be judged guilty regardless. Unfortunately, even many Jews have not learned this historic lesson yet.
Gene, there are Jews in both groups, just as there are even more Jews in Christianity than both combined. The reality is not blaming Jews, because there are gentiles who support BE just as there are Jews who support OL. So this issue is not a pointing of fingers at Jews. I came to a One Law understanding while living in Israel, by few Messianic Jews, not gentiles... While you may want to make this a ethnic issue... For me and presumably Peter, and quite obviously Dan, since he is a Jew, are against a theology taught by a certain group, that being BE, while BE may not had not been put into a book yet, the shared perspectives existed before hand, BE is not sustainable though, so it will never work.
Delete"BE is not sustainable though, so it will never work."
DeleteIn that case you have nothing to worry about. So, I don't know what the problem is, as only a tiny % of Jews would fall under the "BE" umbrella. As for numbers (or lack thereof) of those Jews who reject the OL or TH versions of "Israel", I'll leave you with quote by Leo Tolstoy:
"You say yourselves that God has rejected the Jews; and, as a proof, you quote the fact that the Jews are humiliated and their faith does not spread. Confess then the truth of Mohammedanism [Islam], for it is triumphant and spreads far and wide."
In that case you have nothing to worry about. So, I don't know what the problem is, as only a tiny % of Jews would fall under the "BE" umbrella.
ReplyDeleteCorrect, this is why I more than likely will not be commenting on any more blogs in support of BE, at the end of the Day, what God wants will happen, regardless of OL or BE groups. I will continue to comment on this blog, so if you start missing me, you know where to contact me.. :D
As for numbers (or lack thereof) of those Jews who reject the OL or TH versions of "Israel", I'll leave you with quote by Leo Tolstoy:
I never said anything about numbers, I can't speak, OL and BE are ants on the boards of Christianity and Judaism. Btw, that is a great quote!
// I'm going to review every book published by One-Law scholars. It's just a matter of time. Eventually I'll get to Torah Resource. I love our One-Law scholars so much! G-d has truly blessed our movement! //
ReplyDeleteAmen Peter. I look forward to reading them and posting them to MessianicPublications.com
Gene's concern I believe is valid though. I've seen hostility on both sides of this -- on non-Jews who have a knee-jerk reaction against anything Jewish, as well as those who divide from their brethren because they hold to Bilateral Ecclesiology (I'm part of a congregation that just went through an unfortunate split on this issue).
As a movement, we probably need to do a better job of stressing the great Oneness and Unity that all believers in Yeshua have with one another -- regardless of doctrinal positions and/or religious politics. Bottom line is that family members will always have disagreements. The real question is whether we magnify our Father and his Anointed THROUGH our disagreements, or whether we let them put up walls between us over non-core/fundamental issues.
Rob,
DeleteSorry to hear about the split. If I may ask a personal question, do you currently attend a Messianic congregation?
I do Peter. And seeing the dividing that's been going on lately over this issue, in my own congregation and elsewhere, is something that ways heavy on my heart. I'll PM you details.
Delete"Family members?" How naive you are...They don't want you in their family...Maybe as a butler...
ReplyDelete""Family members?" How naive you are...They don't want you in their family...Maybe as a butler..."
DeleteDan, by such stereotyping you are only helping to fan the flames of hatred toward Jews. Careless words usually come back unto ourselves.
In my lifetime I have encountered many Jews who feel that they can paint other Jews in horrible light and make themselves look good in comparison(i.e. "I am not like the others of my kind"). At the same time, most of them believe that they or especially their progeny will escape the consequences (that they words or action help perpetrate) of the common Jewish fate down the road. Now, that's naive!
I sense your frustration Dan, and felt similar frustration when a group of brothers/sisters left our Messianic congregation over this issue fairly recently (much to our ENTIRE congregation's detriment).
DeleteBut I don't believe I'm being naive on this. I've seen way, way, way too many brothers and sisters divide and even show animosity towards one another over "secondary" theological issues within the Christian circles I've been a part of. I hate to see us bringing the "Agree with me, or you're not my brother/sister" mentality into our Messianic circles, if you know what I mean.
In my experience, those I've spoken with who hold to Bilateral Ecclesiology aren't trying to put non-Jews into a "lesser" or "inferior" status. Just as an example, our congregational leader holds to BE because he is passionately against replacement theology (as he should be). But in his mind, you can either uphold BE, or you're upholding replacement theology (there's no "option C" in his mind. He and I have been trying to think about these issues together and come to mutual understanding, and those discussions have been profitable.
Bottom line though: we both love the Lord, thus he is still my brother in Messiah, and I still attend his congregation, even though we disagree on this one issue (yet agree on the vast majority of other issues).
That, in my mind, is what the gospel is all about.
Rob,
DeleteSplitting is some times the only option, or you will always be butting heads. In this case, there is going to be a split among Messianics, the theologies concerning community relationship in these two groups are at opposites, it is not going to work. I have stated many times, I would not want to attend or be part of a Bilateral community and I definitely would not want my children to be part.
Bilateral Ecclesiology in itself supports this split, so it will more than likely happen and we will all continue on doing what we do.
// Splitting is some times the only option, or you will always be butting heads. //
DeleteThat will depend on whether one of the parties is bent on getting the other party to accept their position or not -- which isn't a healthy way to have a disagreement.
There are ways of disagreeing though that don't require "butting heads." If we can disagree in a charitable and balanced way, we don't have to require the other side to accept our position if they want to be close to, or in community with us. In this way we don't have to sacrifice either truth (as we understand it) or affection.
That will depend on whether one of the parties is bent on getting the other party to accept their position or not -- which isn't a healthy way to have a disagreement.
DeleteThat is what is happening, according to BE, One Law theology is a form of replacement theology, you even stated this yourself. The fact that BE wants a movement that is dominantly Jewish, means that Gentiles have to leave, at least in the majority numbers, this is the reason for the push to go back to church, they are hoping to curve the gentile attendance.
There are ways of disagreeing though that don't require "butting heads." If we can disagree in a charitable and balanced way, we don't have to require the other side to accept our position if they want to be close to, or in community with us. In this way we don't have to sacrifice either truth (as we understand it) or affection.
If people consider your theology to be replacement theology, they are not going to be understanding of your beliefs, and second, a community involves so much more than your simple individual beliefs. What they teach your children or how you are allowed to participate in a community will be affected by their theology. So I can't see your method working in a communal aspect, it can work in a simple debate online, but not community.
Gene,
ReplyDeleteThe One New Man is a symbiotic relationship. Exclude the non-Jews and YOU HARM JEWS. So, from my point of view, Exclusionism is anti-Jewish.
"Exclude the non-Jews and YOU HARM JEWS."
DeletePeter, first of all, nobody is being excluded. All that is being asked of our Gentile friends is to respect the Jewish communities where they voluntarily choose to worship and fellowship. If you come with a myriad of expectations and then become resentful if some of them are not met to your satisfaction, you exclude yourself. It doesn't matter what theology the congregation subscribes to or does not.
When you do come, I hope that you do not come expecting for the hosts to accept all of your theologies anymore than you yourself accept those of the churches/OL/TH messianic places you visit.
Gene,
DeleteNobody is being excluded? Phew! That's a relief. Because I thought Kinzer, one of the foremost leaders of the UMJC, said the following:
"There is one ekklesia, but it contains within it two distinct communal entities: a Jewish ekklesia (representing and serving as a bridge to Israel as a whole) and a Gentile ekklesia," Mark Kinzer, Post-Missionary Messianic Judaism.
Where's the exclusion language, Peter? Did you not notice that per Kinzer the "Jewish ekklesia" acts as a "bridge"? That's a clear picture of a connection, inclusion, a connection between the Community of G-d composed of all nations to the people of Israel.
DeleteRob, they don't want you there, there will be no opportunity to talk. Because their main object is to become a part of mainstream Judaism. In order to do that they will first throw the Gentiles under the Bus (Which they already openly do)and the next step will be throwing Yeshua under the bus.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think Kinzer's "solidarity with Israel" term is all about?
"...they don't want you there, there will be no opportunity to talk."
DeleteOL/TH messianics and other Protestant Christians of every kind constantly split their communities over the smallest of disagreements. Yet, it's only when Jews disagree with the OL/TH people it is labeled "they don't want you there."
Gene,
DeleteThe Jews in the UMJC are leaving their congregations! Don't believe me? This is something I can only tell you via email. But KNOW that the JEWS are getting fed up with bilateral ecclesiology. Email me if you want to know more. You have no idea that you're on the wrong side, my friend.
"But KNOW that the JEWS are getting fed up with bilateral ecclesiology."
DeleteDid our friend Dan somehow manage to clone himself?:)
You can email me with what you got, certainly.
I can tell you as someone who knows firsthand that it's the other way around. The few Jews that are in the Messianic Jewish Movement (one U.S. estimate gave the number an hardly more than 3K - Jews in churches not counted) are fed up with the fact that Judaism is being abused and their sanctuaries are becoming spaces of weirdness where they are ashamed to bring their Jewish friends and relatives. Many have joined mainstream synagogues as a result.
"Many have joined mainstream synagogues as a result."
ReplyDeleteSo, it seems Dan is right!
You have a problem with Jews worshiping in synagogues with other Jews, "Anonymous"? Or are you going to parrot "St" John Chrysostom (look him up) that they should have nothing with "the Jews" and their synagogues, "cause they killed the Lord"?
DeleteAnonymous, do you share "St" John Chrysostom view of the synagogue when it comes to believers going there? According to your reaction you seem to.
DeleteChrysostom in his own words:
"How dare Christians have the slightest intercourse with Jews! They are lustful, rapacious, greedy, perfidious bandits: pests of the universe! Indeed, an entire day would not suffice to tell of all their rapine, their avarice, their deception of the poor, their thievery, and their huckstering.
Are they not inveterate murderers, destroyers, men possessed by the devil? Jews are impure and impious, and their synagogue is a house of prostitution, a lair of beasts, a place of shame and ridicule, the domicile of the devil, as is the soul of the Jew. As a matter of fact, Jews worship the devil; their rites are criminal and unchaste; their religion a disease; their synagogue an assembly of crooks, a den of thieves, a cavern of devils, an abyss of perdition!
Why are the Jews degenerate? Because of their hateful assassination of Christ. This supreme crime lies at the root of their degradation and woes. The rejection and dispersion of the Jews was done by the wrath of God because of His absolute abandonment of the Jews. Thus, the Jew will live under the yoke of slavery without end.
God hates the Jews, and on Judgment Day will say to those who sympathize with them: “Depart from Me, for you have had intercourse with My murderers!” Flee, then, from their assemblies, fly from their houses, and hold their synagogue in hatred and aversion.”"
Gene, you try to make Dan guilty by association?
ReplyDeleteI think he is right in what he said above and your words prove him right. I don't think his comments had anything to do with Chrysostom.
"Gene, you try to make Dan guilty by association?"
DeleteNo, not Dan, you!
Dan said nothing about some Jews joining or visiting mainstream synagogues. He said that Messianic Judaism wants to become "mainstream Judaism".
YOU are the one who assumed that Dan was against Jewish believers visiting or worshiping in synagogues. Dan, at one point, himself was part of a mainstream synagogue as a believer.
"No, not Dan, you!"
ReplyDeleteOh, that just makes it alright! lol
Whenever you can't make a logical argument.... use a logical fallacy.
"Whenever you can't make a logical argument.... use a logical fallacy."
DeleteAnonymous, do you have a problem with believers, Gentiles or Jews, worshiping, fellowshiping or learning in mainstream synagogues?
"Anonymous, do you have a problem with believers, Gentiles or Jews, worshiping, fellowshiping or learning in mainstream synagogues?"
ReplyDeleteNo, I think that believers should go to mainstream synagogues and be open and honest about Yeshua and his words, proclaiming the truth of the gospel and Messiah's message....repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.
But, whosoever is ashamed of Yeshua, he will be ashamed of them.
Still, you persist in sidetracking because you can't deal with the fact that Dan's comments above are correct. First, throw gentiles under the bus, eventually they will throw Yeshua under the bus.
Or, they will tell the members of "mainstream synagogue" about the truth of Yeshua and be asked to leave.
Or, can you say I'm wrong....you can preach Christ in "mainstream synagogues" and I just am not aware of that fact.
If so, which mainstream synagogues are allowing the preaching of Christ?
...and by Christ, I mean Jesus....the one who came, not "messiah" the one who has NOT come.
Delete(Just to anticipate your response and save some space)
"If so, which mainstream synagogues are allowing the preaching of Christ?"
DeleteI think you have it wrong. Jews have been preached "Christ" aplenty in the last two thousand years, but they have been mostly shown satan, the hater of Jews and Judaism instead. Bait and switch. Before all the preaching, perhaps they should been shown the Jewish Messiah. Somehow I think that you're not the person to do that.
"But, whosoever is ashamed of Yeshua, he will be ashamed of them."
DeleteOne more thing. I am proud to know my Messiah. However, I am deeply ashamed of what he was turned into by the haters of Jews, into someone wholly unrecognizable, an enemy of Israel, Torah and Judaism. THAT false image of the Messiah is indeed what I am unashamedly ashamed of - ashamed and deeply grieved. It is to those who preached and followed that false "messiah" will the true Messiah say that he never knew them, workers of inequity.
"OL/TH messianics and other Protestant Christians of every kind constantly split their communities over the smallest of disagreements. Yet, it's only when Jews disagree with the OL/TH people it is labeled "they don't want you there.""
ReplyDeleteGene, this is a red herring. Since it is all in the open...The BE crowed is out there with books, articles and writings that imply that they don't want Gentiles in their congregations. You, yourself alluded to it when you said that the Jews in MJ are ashamed of the Gentiles who come in...
" Jews in MJ are ashamed of the Gentiles who come in..."
DeleteWrong, Dan, they are ashamed because of those, either Jews (as that shofar-blowing "apostle" lady) or Gentiles (those who claim they are "Israel" and twist Judaism to their liking), who do shameful things.
I have also been in congregations with Gentiles who make me proud and honored to be in their company.
"I have also been in congregations with Gentiles who make me proud and honored to be in their company."
ReplyDeleteWow...You have been around....Is this where you got your Galut mentality, or you acquired it before, in Russia?
"Is this where you got your Galut mentality, or you acquired it before, in Russia?"
DeleteI got it on sale online, together with my Messianic Mezuzah and Messianic Shofar!
"I got it on sale online, together with my Messianic Mezuzah and Messianic Shofar!"
ReplyDeleteyou always go for the stupid tzatzkes on sale...Like BE....
You know me, can't resist a good deal.
DeleteYou pay cheap, you get cheap...that is what I tell my wife when something she bought goes kaput....
ReplyDelete"You pay cheap, you get cheap"
DeleteIt was on sale since most buyers didn't want it (too old-fashioned they said, a model from two millenia ago). Instead, a lot of folks were telling me to buy some cheap Chinese knock-off that looked like the real thing, that is currently all the rage among the masses watching too much MTV (Messianic TV). But I know those won't last and will break apart from actual use, only to be replaced by some next fad.
Right...This Hashivenu, BE, UMJC stuff are knock offs that are getting old...I always knew that in the end, you and me will come to an agreement.....
ReplyDelete"I always knew that in the end, you and me will come to an agreement....."
DeleteDan, are you experience problems with reading comprehension:)?
"experiencing"
Delete"Somehow I think that you're not the person to do that."
ReplyDeleteWhy, won't they listen to a man of "a foolish nation"?
"Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."
"Why, won't they listen to a man of "a foolish nation"?"
DeleteA lot of things happened in the last two thousand years. Jews have heard certainly heard from the "foolish nations", or rather they have felt it, but most of it wasn't very good if you know your history. Were Jews provoked by the nations to know their Messiah or were they further estranged from him by their actions?
Paul believed that Jesus was coming in his own generation. He didn't seem to foresee what the "foolish nations" springing forth from the very congregations which he himself helped set up, even people who claimed Jesus as their own savior, would do in Jesus' name to Paul's own people.
A lot of things happened in the last two thousand years. Jews have heard certainly heard from the "foolish nations", or rather they have felt it, but most of it wasn't very good if you know your history. Were Jews provoked by the nations to know their Messiah or were they further estranged from him by their actions?
DeleteWell said... the past 2000 years have failed to accomplish or even commit the vision Paul had in Romans. Instead the opposite happened.
I mean to say, "the Church" failed the past 2000 years concerning Jews.
Delete"I mean to say, "the Church" failed the past 2000 years concerning Jews."
DeleteNot a very good defense for those who will stand before the Almighty Judge and give a reason for their unbelief. How would that go? I can just hear it...
"Great King, it's not our fault. Those Gentiles you brought among us gave to us and we did eat". Its those Gentiles fault we refused to hear Moses, its their fault we stoned the prophets you sent to us, its their fault we had hearts of stone and stiff necks. Its the Gentiles fault we killed your son thinking to take what belongs to him as our own. Its their fault we did not hear the one you sent, like unto Moses, speaking your words."
Actually, it sounds a lot like Adam blaming G-d..."the woman you gave me" rather than taking responsibility for his own actions.
"Not a very good defense for those who will stand before the Almighty Judge and give a reason for their unbelief. How would that go? I can just hear it..."
DeleteThankfully, you won't be the judge but a defendant yourself, like everyone else. The Righteous Judge will determine each case individually. You make it seems like G-d's court is like a merciless kangaroo court in some third world hell hole dictatorship, where no defense will be allowed or reasonable and you are judged "guilty" before you even get there.
"You make it seems like G-d's court is like a merciless kangaroo court in some third world hell hole dictatorship, where no defense will be allowed or reasonable and you are judged "guilty" before you even get there."
DeleteNo I don't. You are just showing the typical "Jewish" stiff neck.
What I'm saying is more along the lines of this:
If a ,am committed adultery by lusting after a woman, as per Yeshua's degree.....it won't be a good defense to justify himself by blaming the woman he lusted for due to her good looks.
While I can not defend every person throughout history that taught the word and preached the gospel, sometimes in error...
ReplyDeleteIt is not those men who have blinded unbelievers from Messiah.
"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in them that perish: in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them."
And the Master himself said that by his coming, those who could see would be made blind.
"It is not those men who have blinded unbelievers from Messiah."
DeleteNo excuses, OK? The same way you judge Jews/Israel's response to Jesus, you should judge Christians representation of him as well.
"No excuses, OK? The same way you judge Jews/Israel's response to Jesus, you should judge Christians representation of him as well."
ReplyDeleteI don't judge men, that's not what Yeshua taught me. He taught me that "Jews/Israel's response to Jesus"
will be as he said it would be,
he already knew what Israel's response would be and it was prophesied long ago. Funny, he never mentioned it would all be the Gentiles fault.
In spite of all that evil they did and continue in today, he will again choose Israel and take out the hard heart, replace it was a flesh heart.
and so I "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem".
"I don't judge men"
DeleteAnd with that, I think I heard enough from you.
"And with that, I think I heard enough from you."
ReplyDeleteWhy Gene? When you bash Christians and rant about the evil of the way they present Jesus and the things they said about the Jews...
I'm sure you were recognizing the wrong they were doing, without judging them.
Right?