Shalom and welcome to my Messianic Judaism discussion blog! I want this to be THE place where Messianics can come together and discuss what's on their heart. Spread the word about this blog and let's all work together to bring unity to the Body! Shalom!
Great discussion as always my friend. I'm glad to see your trying to put together a body of collective groups who can assimilate together; however, I think by using divinity as a sticking point is just going to draw more division. There has been many quarrels about divinity regarding the messiah. However, you know where I stand on this particular issue. Nevertheless, I fellowship with folk on both sides of the spectrum. I just fear this will become an instituted salvational issue. We as followers of Yeshua should show compassion toward others. Just conjecture on my end, the divinity issue shouldn't be a deal breaker. Many groups do this sought of entry point. Example: mikveh in the name of Yeshua- mikveh in the name of Abba, Son, Ruach! At some point we miss the point. Join Israel & build the body and await for the restoration of Israel.
See my response to Troy below. Saying that the Divinity of Yeshua is minor issue in Messianic Judaism is like saying that the United States Constitution is a minor issue in American jurisprudence.
It isn't that uncommon for Jewish believers in Yeshua as Mashiach to differ from the church on his nature. Even Christians coming out of the church frequently end up with similar viewpoints. Check http://www.torahofmessiah.org for example--lots of well written/researched articles that you might want to read for a balanced viewpoint on this.
I'm the one who introduced you to the chavura I'm associated with and now I'm regretting that because you seem to be going off the rails a bit and coming across in an accusing and argumentative manner rather than simply getting to know these folks and seeing what they have to contribute. There's nothing wrong with holding differing viewpoints but starting a major campaign against someone after just a couple days of knowing them seems way over the top.
In light of Deuteronomy 13 and/or Numbers 23:19 you have to realize that it's not kosher for a Jew to believe that Yeshua = Hashem. They are distinct and different, and Hashem is the one and only deity. It's not even really a divinity issue as Gifted has suggested--as there is a difference between divinity and deity.
You are portraying the Divinity of Yeshua as a minor issue. It is not.
Case in point: halacha prohibits the worship of a created being but does not prohibit worship of the Creator. Worship of Yeshua is a fundamental and defining aspect of Messianic Judaism. If you have a congregation then that says Yeshua is not the Creator but merely a created being and this congregation is also promoting Rabbinic halacha then suddenly this is what has happened:
YOUR COMMUNITY HAS EFFECTIVELY OUTLAWED THE WORSHIP OF YESHUA.
Therefore, I must disagree with your assessment that this is a minor issue. Rather, this issue affects the existence of the Messianic movement as we know it.
I didn't say it was a minor issue, and as you know I've told you privately that I am still working my way through that particular issue for myself. It's certainly not minor, and it's not easy either. Scripture leaves no doubt that Yeshua and Hashem are distinct when Yeshua prays to Hashem in Matt 11, Luke 6 and 22, etc. In the same way, Moses' burning bush was not Hashem, but was his agent, a reflection of Hashem if you will.
The point is, it should not be a surprise to you that a group who is Orthodox does not agree that Yeshua = Hashem.
I know that whenever I get through my own study on this topic, I don't see myself becoming suddenly empowered to start slandering those with a differing opinion.
I'm just surprised at the way you are handling this. Agree to disagree if you must, but to essentially launch a public campaign against them with some thinly veiled passive aggressive mocking included for good measure just doesn't seem befitting a disciple of Yeshua.
What in the world are you talking about? What slanderous false statements have I made?
You're upset because I correctly pointed out that it is unusual for someone to go around wearing the vestments of a High Priest. My subtle urging of caution hardly qualifies as "a public campaign against them". Also, I was fair, noting that there might be an explanation for why he was wearing those vestments (e.g. Purim).
Your reaction to this post is a bit reminiscent of the way a Scientologist reacts whenever someone issues even the slightest hint of a warning against Scientology. The very first thing the Scientologist does is to sue the person for slander. "They've slandered the Church of Scientology!!! They've slandered the precious name of LRH!!!"
I'll tell you the same thing I'd tell a Scientologist: show me where I've made a false statement.
It seems to me that deifying the Messiah is only a priority if one carries such a doctrine over from church theosophy. Judaism has always had room for a variety of expression regarding the nature and character of Mashiach. Christianity, on the other hand, has made trinitarian doctrine a watershed, a definition for whether one is inside or outside of "the camp".
I believe Tehillim/Psalms 89 contains the key to understanding the nature of Mashiach. Everything in that psalm applies equally to David, to Solomon, and also to Yeshua. Once we wrap our heads around that idea, we are on our way to a Biblical perspective.
First, you'll notice by surveying all the 1st Century Jewish literature that one thing was universal: Jews believed, based on Torah, that Creatorship was unique to HaShem (see notes below). Second, the Apostolic writers not only attributed Creatorship to Yeshua (see notes below) but they believed salvation was impossible unless G-d Himself was providing the atonement. Third, the Torah itself says that the Messiah is Divine and therefore to reject the nature of the Messiah is to reject HaShem (see notes below).
G-d says He made all things in the universe alone–by Himself (“I am the Lord maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself” Isaiah 44:24).
The Apostolic Writings affirm that Yeshua made all things (“…there is one Lord, Yeshua HaMoshiach, through whom all things were created” 1 Corinthians 8:6 and “All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made,” John 1:3. Moreover, the text says that Yeshua is G-d ("...the Word was God," John 1:1).
Here's Bauckham on how strict monotheism of 1st Century Judaism was identifiable based on the criteria that HaShem was the sole Creator of all things:
"In my view high Christology was possible within a Jewish monotheistic context, not by applying to Jesus a Jewish category of semi-divine intermediary status, but by identifying Jesus directly with the one God of Israel, including Jesus in the unique identity of this one God. I use the term 'unique identity' as the best way of speaking of the uniqueness of God as generally conceived in early Judaism."
"The one God of Second Temple Jewish belief was identifiable as unique by two kinds of identifying features. The first concerns his covenant relationship with Israel. He is the God of Israel, known from the recital of his acts in Israel's history and from the revelation of his character to Israel (Exod 34:6). He has revealed to Israel his name [Adonai], which was of great importance to Jews of the Second Temple period because it names precisely the unique identity of their God."
"...this God was also characterized as unique by his relationships to the whole of reality: especially that he is the only Creator of all things and that he is the sole sovereign Ruler of all things. Such identifications of [Adonai] are extremely common in Second Temple Jewish literature. Such identifications of [Adonai] are extremely common in Second Temple Jewish literature. They were the simplest and clearest way of answering the question: What distinguishes [Adonai], the only true God, from all other reality? In what does his uniqueness consist? These characteristics make a clear and absolute distinction between the true God and all other reality. God alone created all things; all other things, including beings worshipped as gods by Gentiles, are created by him....However diverse Judaism may have been in many other respects, this was common: only the God of Israel is worthy of worship because he is the sole Creator of all things and sole Ruler of all things. Other beings who might otherwise be thought divine are by these criteria God's creatures and subjects. (Thus so-called intermediary figures either belong to the unique identity of God or else were created by and remain subject to the one God, as his worshippers and servants, however exalted.)"
And here Bauckham provides references from 1st Century Jewish literature that show this strict monotheism based on HaShem's unique Creatorship was the predominant belief:
“However diverse Judaism may have been in many other respects, this was common: only the God of Israel is worthy of worship because he is sole Creator of all things and sole Ruler of all things. Other beings who might otherwise be thought divine are by these criteria God’s creatures and subjects,” Bauckham, Jesus and the God of Israel, pg. 9. And he writes, “…again and again, in a wide variety of Second Temple Jewish literature, [it is written that Adonai] is sole Creator of all things…”
He’s talking not just about numerous passages in Torah but also extra-biblical Jewish sources such as 2 Macc. 1:24; Sir. 43:33; Bel 5; Jub. 12:3-5; sib. Or. 3:20-35; 8:375-76; Sib. Or. frg. 1:5-6; Sib. Or. frg. 3; Sib. Or. frg. 5; 2 En. 47:3-4; 66:4 Apoc. Ab. 7:10; Ps-Sophocles; Jos. Asen. 12:1-2; T. Job 2:4.
1 Cor 1:2 (cf. Rom 10:13)----Joel 2:23; Zeph 3:9; Zech 13:9; Jer 10:25 etc.
'the day of the Lord'
1 Cor 1:8; 5:5; 2 Cor 1:14; 1 Thes 5:2; 2 Thes 2:2 Joel 1:15; 2:1, 11, 31; Amos 5:18; Isa 13:6, 9 etc.
'to serve the Lord' Rom 12:11; 16:18 1 Kdms 12:20; Pss 2:11; 99(100):2; 101(102):22 etc.
'the word of the Lord' 1 Thes 1:8; 2 Thes 3:1 Isa 2:3 etc.
'the Lord be with you' 2 Thes 3:16 Ruth 2:4; 1 Kdms 17:37; 20:13 etc.
'the fear of the Lord' 2 Cor 5:11 Isa 2:10, 19, 21 etc.
(2) YHWH texts with God as referent:
(2a) Nine quotations including kurio" Rom 4:7-8----Ps 31(32):1-2 Rom 9:27-28----Hos 2:1 + Isa 10:22-2316 Rom 9:29----Isa 1:9 (kuvrio" sabawvq) Rom 10:16----Isa 53:1 (kuvrio" in LXX, no equivalent in MT)17 Rom 11:3 3----Kdms 19:10 (kuvrio" not in LXX, no equivalent in MT) Rom 11:34----Isa 40:13 Rom 15:11----Ps 116(117):1 1 Cor 3:20----Ps 93(94):11 2 Cor 6:18 2----Kdms 7:14, 8 (kuvrio" pantokravtwr)
(2b) Three quotations to which Paul adds legei kurio" Rom 12:1919----Deut 32:35 1 Cor 14:21----Isa 28:11-12 2 Cor 6:17----Isa 52:11 + Ezek 20:34
(2c) Twelve quotations in which the speaker ('I') is identified as YHWH in the OT context
Rom 4:17----Gen 17:5 Rom 9:9----Gen 18:14 Rom 9:13----Mal 1:2-3 Rom 9:14----Exod 33:19 Rom 9:17-----Exod 9:16 Rom 9:25----Hos 2:25 Rom 9:33-----Isa 28:16 Rom 10:19-----Deut 32:2120 Rom 10:20-----Isa 65:1 Rom 10:21-----Isa 65:2 Rom 11:26-27----Isa 59:20-21 2 Cor 6:2----- Isa 49:8"
"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn," Zechariah 12:10
Non-Messianic Jews, when they read Zechariah 12:10, are faced with a problem: here is a passage where G-d is the speaker and He seems to be saying that He was rejected and pierced by His own People.
Zech. 12:10 says that they will look unto "me"---the one who was [previously, at some other time] slain. The passage literally says they will accept the Messiah that they had previously rejected! It's talking not about 2 different Messiahs but about a single Messiah!
By the way, the grammar in this passage is not contested by the Talmudic Rabbis nor is it contested by Jewish scholars:
"...the translation 'look to Me whom they have pierced' is correct. The relative clause 'whom they have pierced' in in apposition to 'Me,' the spokesman of the passage. 'Et, the Hebrew word introducing the clause marks it as the object of the verb 'look to'; the Hebrew word 'asher is always a relative pronoun in that context, and never the conjunction 'because.' It should also be noted that in the Hebrew clause 'they have pierced' lacks the pronominal suffix 'him,'" Gerald Sigal, Trinity Doctrine Error: A Jewish Analysis.
NOTES 4: YESHUA HIMSELF STATED THAT HE WAS HASHEM AND HIS FIRST-CENTURY JEWISH AUDIENCE UNDERSTOOD WHAT HE WAS SAYING
"56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”[d] 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple," John 8:56-59
Here we see Yeshua referring to Himself as HaShem in such a way that leaves no doubt. Even the Jews listening to Him say it perfectly understood that He was identifying as HaShem. And, not believing that He was HaShem, they picked up stones to stone Him for what they believed to be blasphemy. Here's a note about the unmistakable way Yeshua identified Himself:
"Jesus uses the ego eimi formula in three different ways in the Fourth Gospel: (1) With a predicate....(2) With an implied predicate....(3) As an absolute...certainly in 8:58: 'before Abraham was born, I am!' The last of these uses needs furhter comment, for in this case ego eimi represents the divine name. In Exodus 3:14 God says to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' The 'I AM WHO I AM' is translated as ego eimi ho on in the LXX. In Isaiah 43:25; 51:12 ego eimi on its own functions as the divine name. Thus when Jesus said to 'the Jews', 'before Abraham was born, I am', he was identifying himself with God. He was not only pronouncing the name of God...he was claiming to be God," Colin Kruse, The Gospel According to John, pg. 138
I have had the pleasure of working along side Rabbi Hilbrant and his group for well over 12 years. I am not Jewish, either by birth or conversion. I have witnessed his testimony and his efforts along the way. Your remarks about wearing a "costume" were simply rude and childish and on that note, what concern or right do you have to publicly attempt to question or shame a congregation you have no connection or idea about?
Your question is wrong. It assumes that the posting was motivated by a desire to cause shame. On the contrary, the posting was motivated by a desire to protect people from the potential threat we constantly see in the Messianic movement when men try to aggrandize themselves with elaborate outfits and then immediately move to seize power and wield it in dictatorial fashion over various congregations. Yeah, I've been in the movement a while and have seen lots of instances of this---the big turbans, golden vestments, etc. So I always urge caution whenever I see that. Nothing personal against anyone.
Years ago, deep into the nineties I was a member and later an elder in the congregation bait Shalom in Victovile/San Bernardino California. The congregation was led by Rene Block, and his assistant was Joseph Hilbrant. He used to dress as an Orthodox Jew with Hasidic garb. When Asked Joseph told everyone that He is 5th generation Messianic Jew. We always had our suspicion until one Shabbat we had a guest speaker, Joseph Hilbrant brother. When we asked him if his family is Messianic for 5 generation he smiled and told us that they are Gentile Christian. Not only that, my son was young by then about 20 years old and that Josheph who plays the Tzadik came on to my son, if you know what I mean. Eventually he left suddenly...
The guy is a charlatan and dangerous, and I would not recomend anyone to get close to him. If he asked tell him I told you so, you better mention my name.
Great discussion as always my friend. I'm glad to see your trying to put together a body of collective groups who can assimilate together; however, I think by using divinity as a sticking point is just going to draw more division. There has been many quarrels about divinity regarding the messiah. However, you know where I stand on this particular issue. Nevertheless, I fellowship with folk on both sides of the spectrum. I just fear this will become an instituted salvational issue. We as followers of Yeshua should show compassion toward others. Just conjecture on my end, the divinity issue shouldn't be a deal breaker. Many groups do this sought of entry point. Example: mikveh in the name of Yeshua- mikveh in the name of Abba, Son, Ruach! At some point we miss the point. Join Israel & build the body and await for the restoration of Israel.
ReplyDeleteShalom!!
See my response to Troy below. Saying that the Divinity of Yeshua is minor issue in Messianic Judaism is like saying that the United States Constitution is a minor issue in American jurisprudence.
DeleteIt isn't that uncommon for Jewish believers in Yeshua as Mashiach to differ from the church on his nature. Even Christians coming out of the church frequently end up with similar viewpoints. Check http://www.torahofmessiah.org for example--lots of well written/researched articles that you might want to read for a balanced viewpoint on this.
ReplyDeleteI'm the one who introduced you to the chavura I'm associated with and now I'm regretting that because you seem to be going off the rails a bit and coming across in an accusing and argumentative manner rather than simply getting to know these folks and seeing what they have to contribute. There's nothing wrong with holding differing viewpoints but starting a major campaign against someone after just a couple days of knowing them seems way over the top.
In light of Deuteronomy 13 and/or Numbers 23:19 you have to realize that it's not kosher for a Jew to believe that Yeshua = Hashem. They are distinct and different, and Hashem is the one and only deity. It's not even really a divinity issue as Gifted has suggested--as there is a difference between divinity and deity.
Troy,
DeleteYou are portraying the Divinity of Yeshua as a minor issue. It is not.
Case in point: halacha prohibits the worship of a created being but does not prohibit worship of the Creator. Worship of Yeshua is a fundamental and defining aspect of Messianic Judaism. If you have a congregation then that says Yeshua is not the Creator but merely a created being and this congregation is also promoting Rabbinic halacha then suddenly this is what has happened:
YOUR COMMUNITY HAS EFFECTIVELY OUTLAWED THE WORSHIP OF YESHUA.
Therefore, I must disagree with your assessment that this is a minor issue. Rather, this issue affects the existence of the Messianic movement as we know it.
Troy,
DeleteOne more thing: Torah says that the Messiah is HaShem:
http://orthodoxmessianic.blogspot.com/2015/08/censoring-face-of-messiah-why-jewish.html
I didn't say it was a minor issue, and as you know I've told you privately that I am still working my way through that particular issue for myself. It's certainly not minor, and it's not easy either. Scripture leaves no doubt that Yeshua and Hashem are distinct when Yeshua prays to Hashem in Matt 11, Luke 6 and 22, etc. In the same way, Moses' burning bush was not Hashem, but was his agent, a reflection of Hashem if you will.
DeleteThe point is, it should not be a surprise to you that a group who is Orthodox does not agree that Yeshua = Hashem.
I know that whenever I get through my own study on this topic, I don't see myself becoming suddenly empowered to start slandering those with a differing opinion.
I'm just surprised at the way you are handling this. Agree to disagree if you must, but to essentially launch a public campaign against them with some thinly veiled passive aggressive mocking included for good measure just doesn't seem befitting a disciple of Yeshua.
Troy,
DeleteWhat in the world are you talking about? What slanderous false statements have I made?
You're upset because I correctly pointed out that it is unusual for someone to go around wearing the vestments of a High Priest. My subtle urging of caution hardly qualifies as "a public campaign against them". Also, I was fair, noting that there might be an explanation for why he was wearing those vestments (e.g. Purim).
Your reaction to this post is a bit reminiscent of the way a Scientologist reacts whenever someone issues even the slightest hint of a warning against Scientology. The very first thing the Scientologist does is to sue the person for slander. "They've slandered the Church of Scientology!!! They've slandered the precious name of LRH!!!"
I'll tell you the same thing I'd tell a Scientologist: show me where I've made a false statement.
It seems to me that deifying the Messiah is only a priority if one carries such a doctrine over from church theosophy. Judaism has always had room for a variety of expression regarding the nature and character of Mashiach. Christianity, on the other hand, has made trinitarian doctrine a watershed, a definition for whether one is inside or outside of "the camp".
ReplyDeleteI believe Tehillim/Psalms 89 contains the key to understanding the nature of Mashiach. Everything in that psalm applies equally to David, to Solomon, and also to Yeshua. Once we wrap our heads around that idea, we are on our way to a Biblical perspective.
David,
DeleteFirst, you'll notice by surveying all the 1st Century Jewish literature that one thing was universal: Jews believed, based on Torah, that Creatorship was unique to HaShem (see notes below). Second, the Apostolic writers not only attributed Creatorship to Yeshua (see notes below) but they believed salvation was impossible unless G-d Himself was providing the atonement. Third, the Torah itself says that the Messiah is Divine and therefore to reject the nature of the Messiah is to reject HaShem (see notes below).
NOTES 1: CREATORSHIP UNIQUE TO HASHEM
DeleteG-d says He made all things in the universe alone–by Himself (“I am the Lord maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself” Isaiah 44:24).
The Apostolic Writings affirm that Yeshua made all things (“…there is one Lord, Yeshua HaMoshiach, through whom all things were created” 1 Corinthians 8:6 and “All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made,” John 1:3. Moreover, the text says that Yeshua is G-d ("...the Word was God," John 1:1).
Here's Bauckham on how strict monotheism of 1st Century Judaism was identifiable based on the criteria that HaShem was the sole Creator of all things:
"In my view high Christology was possible within a Jewish monotheistic context, not by applying to Jesus a Jewish category of semi-divine intermediary status, but by identifying Jesus directly with the one God of Israel, including Jesus in the unique identity of this one God. I use the term 'unique identity' as the best way of speaking of the uniqueness of God as generally conceived in early Judaism."
"The one God of Second Temple Jewish belief was identifiable as unique by two kinds of identifying features. The first concerns his covenant relationship with Israel. He is the God of Israel, known from the recital of his acts in Israel's history and from the revelation of his character to Israel (Exod 34:6). He has revealed to Israel his name [Adonai], which was of great importance to Jews of the Second Temple period because it names precisely the unique identity of their God."
"...this God was also characterized as unique by his relationships to the whole of reality: especially that he is the only Creator of all things and that he is the sole sovereign Ruler of all things. Such identifications of [Adonai] are extremely common in Second Temple Jewish literature. Such identifications of [Adonai] are extremely common in Second Temple Jewish literature. They were the simplest and clearest way of answering the question: What distinguishes [Adonai], the only true God, from all other reality? In what does his uniqueness consist? These characteristics make a clear and absolute distinction between the true God and all other reality. God alone created all things; all other things, including beings worshipped as gods by Gentiles, are created by him....However diverse Judaism may have been in many other respects, this was common: only the God of Israel is worthy of worship because he is the sole Creator of all things and sole Ruler of all things. Other beings who might otherwise be thought divine are by these criteria God's creatures and subjects. (Thus so-called intermediary figures either belong to the unique identity of God or else were created by and remain subject to the one God, as his worshippers and servants, however exalted.)"
And here Bauckham provides references from 1st Century Jewish literature that show this strict monotheism based on HaShem's unique Creatorship was the predominant belief:
“However diverse Judaism may have been in many other respects, this was common: only the God of Israel is worthy of worship because he is sole Creator of all things and sole Ruler of all things. Other beings who might otherwise be thought divine are by these criteria God’s creatures and subjects,” Bauckham, Jesus and the God of Israel, pg. 9. And he writes, “…again and again, in a wide variety of Second Temple Jewish literature, [it is written that Adonai] is sole Creator of all things…”
He’s talking not just about numerous passages in Torah but also extra-biblical Jewish sources such as 2 Macc. 1:24; Sir. 43:33; Bel 5; Jub. 12:3-5; sib. Or. 3:20-35; 8:375-76; Sib. Or. frg. 1:5-6; Sib. Or. frg. 3; Sib. Or. frg. 5; 2 En. 47:3-4; 66:4 Apoc. Ab. 7:10; Ps-Sophocles; Jos. Asen. 12:1-2; T. Job 2:4.
NOTES 2: THE APOSTOLIC WRITERS EQUATED YESHUA WITH HASHEM
DeleteHere are some places where Paul applies HaShem passages to Yeshua:
"(1) [Adonai] texts with Jesus Christ as referent:
(1a) Five quotations including kurio
Rom 10:13-----Joel 2:32
1 Cor 1:31------Jer 9:24
1 Cor 2:16------Isa 40:13
1 Cor 10:26----Ps 23(24):1
2 Cor 10:17----Jer 9:24
(1b) One quotation to which Paul adds legei kurio
Rom 14:11----Isa 45:23
(1c) One quotation not including kurio
Rom 9:33----Isa 8:14
(1d) Nine allusions including kurio
1 Cor 8:6----Deut 6:4
1 Cor 10:22----Deut 32:21
2 Cor 8:21----Prov 3:4
Phil 2:10-11----Isa 45:23
1 Thes 3:13----Zech 14:5
2 Thes 1:7----Isa 66:15
2 Thes 1:9----Isa 2:10, 19, 21
2 Thes 1:12----Isa 66:5
2 Thes 3:16----Num 6:26
(1e) Six stereotyped OT phrases including kurio
'to call on the name of the Lord'
1 Cor 1:2 (cf. Rom 10:13)----Joel 2:23; Zeph 3:9; Zech 13:9; Jer 10:25 etc.
'the day of the Lord'
1 Cor 1:8; 5:5; 2 Cor 1:14; 1 Thes 5:2; 2 Thes 2:2 Joel 1:15; 2:1, 11, 31; Amos 5:18; Isa 13:6, 9 etc.
'to serve the Lord' Rom 12:11; 16:18 1 Kdms 12:20; Pss 2:11; 99(100):2; 101(102):22 etc.
'the word of the Lord' 1 Thes 1:8; 2 Thes 3:1 Isa 2:3 etc.
'the Lord be with you' 2 Thes 3:16 Ruth 2:4; 1 Kdms 17:37; 20:13 etc.
'the fear of the Lord' 2 Cor 5:11 Isa 2:10, 19, 21 etc.
(2) YHWH texts with God as referent:
(2a) Nine quotations including kurio"
Rom 4:7-8----Ps 31(32):1-2
Rom 9:27-28----Hos 2:1 + Isa 10:22-2316
Rom 9:29----Isa 1:9 (kuvrio" sabawvq)
Rom 10:16----Isa 53:1 (kuvrio" in LXX, no equivalent in MT)17 Rom 11:3 3----Kdms 19:10 (kuvrio" not in LXX, no equivalent in MT)
Rom 11:34----Isa 40:13
Rom 15:11----Ps 116(117):1
1 Cor 3:20----Ps 93(94):11
2 Cor 6:18 2----Kdms 7:14, 8 (kuvrio" pantokravtwr)
(2b) Three quotations to which Paul adds legei kurio"
Rom 12:1919----Deut 32:35
1 Cor 14:21----Isa 28:11-12
2 Cor 6:17----Isa 52:11 + Ezek 20:34
(2c) Twelve quotations in which the speaker ('I') is identified as YHWH in the OT context
Rom 4:17----Gen 17:5
Rom 9:9----Gen 18:14
Rom 9:13----Mal 1:2-3
Rom 9:14----Exod 33:19
Rom 9:17-----Exod 9:16
Rom 9:25----Hos 2:25
Rom 9:33-----Isa 28:16
Rom 10:19-----Deut 32:2120
Rom 10:20-----Isa 65:1
Rom 10:21-----Isa 65:2
Rom 11:26-27----Isa 59:20-21
2 Cor 6:2----- Isa 49:8"
NOTES 3: THE TORAH SAYS THE MESSIAH IS DIVINE
Delete"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn," Zechariah 12:10
Non-Messianic Jews, when they read Zechariah 12:10, are faced with a problem: here is a passage where G-d is the speaker and He seems to be saying that He was rejected and pierced by His own People.
Zech. 12:10 says that they will look unto "me"---the one who was [previously, at some other time] slain. The passage literally says they will accept the Messiah that they had previously rejected! It's talking not about 2 different Messiahs but about a single Messiah!
By the way, the grammar in this passage is not contested by the Talmudic Rabbis nor is it contested by Jewish scholars:
"...the translation 'look to Me whom they have pierced' is correct. The relative clause 'whom they have pierced' in in apposition to 'Me,' the spokesman of the passage. 'Et, the Hebrew word introducing the clause marks it as the object of the verb 'look to'; the Hebrew word 'asher is always a relative pronoun in that context, and never the conjunction 'because.' It should also be noted that in the Hebrew clause 'they have pierced' lacks the pronominal suffix 'him,'" Gerald Sigal, Trinity Doctrine Error: A Jewish Analysis.
NOTES 4: YESHUA HIMSELF STATED THAT HE WAS HASHEM AND HIS FIRST-CENTURY JEWISH AUDIENCE UNDERSTOOD WHAT HE WAS SAYING
Delete"56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”[d] 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple," John 8:56-59
Here we see Yeshua referring to Himself as HaShem in such a way that leaves no doubt. Even the Jews listening to Him say it perfectly understood that He was identifying as HaShem. And, not believing that He was HaShem, they picked up stones to stone Him for what they believed to be blasphemy. Here's a note about the unmistakable way Yeshua identified Himself:
"Jesus uses the ego eimi formula in three different ways in the Fourth Gospel: (1) With a predicate....(2) With an implied predicate....(3) As an absolute...certainly in 8:58: 'before Abraham was born, I am!' The last of these uses needs furhter comment, for in this case ego eimi represents the divine name. In Exodus 3:14 God says to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' The 'I AM WHO I AM' is translated as ego eimi ho on in the LXX. In Isaiah 43:25; 51:12 ego eimi on its own functions as the divine name. Thus when Jesus said to 'the Jews', 'before Abraham was born, I am', he was identifying himself with God. He was not only pronouncing the name of God...he was claiming to be God," Colin Kruse, The Gospel According to John, pg. 138
Hello Mr. Vest,
DeleteI have had the pleasure of working along side Rabbi Hilbrant and his group for well over 12 years. I am not Jewish, either by birth or conversion. I have witnessed his testimony and his efforts along the way. Your remarks about wearing a "costume" were simply rude and childish and on that note, what concern or right do you have to publicly attempt to question or shame a congregation you have no connection or idea about?
"dfour26",
DeleteYour question is wrong. It assumes that the posting was motivated by a desire to cause shame. On the contrary, the posting was motivated by a desire to protect people from the potential threat we constantly see in the Messianic movement when men try to aggrandize themselves with elaborate outfits and then immediately move to seize power and wield it in dictatorial fashion over various congregations. Yeah, I've been in the movement a while and have seen lots of instances of this---the big turbans, golden vestments, etc. So I always urge caution whenever I see that. Nothing personal against anyone.
Thanks for visiting and commenting.
Shalom,
Peter
Peter,
ReplyDeleteYears ago, deep into the nineties I was a member and later an elder in the congregation bait Shalom in Victovile/San Bernardino California. The congregation was led by Rene Block, and his assistant was Joseph Hilbrant. He used to dress as an Orthodox Jew with Hasidic garb. When Asked Joseph told everyone that He is 5th generation Messianic Jew. We always had our suspicion until one Shabbat we had a guest speaker, Joseph Hilbrant brother. When we asked him if his family is Messianic for 5 generation he smiled and told us that they are Gentile Christian. Not only that, my son was young by then about 20 years old and that Josheph who plays the Tzadik came on to my son, if you know what I mean. Eventually he left suddenly...
The guy is a charlatan and dangerous, and I would not recomend anyone to get close to him. If he asked tell him I told you so, you better mention my name.
Yikes! Thanks for the warning!
DeleteYikes, indeed!
DeleteDan!
DeleteSubtle as ever, I see.
And... Yikes! again.
Hi Mish, how are you?
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