Saturday, February 21, 2015

Messiah as Divine Metaphor




"How Does G-d Reveal Unity? ...Consider a teacher and his student.  The teacher knows that the student has a less developed intellect, and that if he presents a concept on the level of his own comprehension, the student will only be confused.  To introduce a new idea to the student, he condenses it and uses metaphors or parables to bring it within the student's grasp.....Using metaphors is not meant to separate the teacher and the student, but to bring them together in a unity that does not compromise either of them.....To allow us to unite with Him, G-d has provided an elaborate trail of metaphors, like stepping-stones across a wide river.  These steps function like a metaphor or a translator.  A translator does not add any new ideas to a conversation--that is not his role--but he unites two parties in communication.  An intermediary does not settle a dispute, but be creates a bridge, a line of communication, that enables the two sides to achieve a common understanding.  In a student-teacher relationship, the teacher is both source and mediator.  The teacher's metaphor is the intermediary, allowing an abstract concept to be translated into one that can be grasped.  The teacher's goal is to create a series of stepping-stones to accommodate the student's intellectual stride, leading him deeper and deeper into the concept.  The metaphor, then, is equal parts 'light,' the teacher's concept, and 'container,' language that makes the ideas accessible to the student," Menachem Mendel Schneerson, Toward a Meaningful Life:  The Wisdom of the Rebbe (Adapted by Simon Jacobson)
It's interesting how the above comment can apply to Yeshua.  He is simultaneously both man:
"For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," 1 Tim. 2:5
And G-d:
"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily," Colossians 2:9
The reality is that Yeshua, as a man, is the physical manifestation of the Word of G-d--and this Word is a metaphor, a translation, for the spiritual reality of G-d which is so transcendent that we can never experience.

We long to touch the face of G-d...but, with our present limitations, the best we can hope for is to touch the metaphor (Yeshua).


If we apply the Schneerson's teacher-student metaphor, G-d is the source that dwells in a "thick darkness" (1 Kings 8:12); yet He sends out His teaching--His Word--which mediates between Him and us, operating like a metaphor for our delicate minds, so that we may experience His light and become one with Him.  The blueprint for this unifying with G-d is, of course, the Torah:

"In describing the wisdom of King Solomon, the verse states, 'And he grew wiser than all men...and he spoke three thousand metaphors.'  At first glance, we might think that this description of Solomon's abilities reflects his fertile imagination rather than any great wisdom.  But the metaphor is far more than an entertaining way to convey an idea; it is the translation of a concept into a lower level of intellectual discourse.  The greatness of Solomon's wisdom lay in the fact that he could take the most profound, sublime thoughts and bring them to life for minds far less developed--three thousand steps less developed--than his own.  This, in turn, enables the recipients to retrace the steps, one by one, until they can achieve the original high level of discourse.
     Solomon's wisdom is itself a metaphor for the sort of wisdom that went into G-d's creation of our physical world.  After the radical 'jump' from a nonexistential reality to an existential one, G-d began creating all existences in their most spiritual, sublime forms.  He then caused them to develop, in many stages, ultimately producing our physical world, the most tangible embodiment of G-d's created realities.  Every material element or force is actually a physical manifestation of a higher, more spiritual one; water, for example, is the physical embodiment of love and kindness, while fire represents the physical dimension of power.
     But as the properties of the world become more tangible, they also become farther removed from their divine source...
     In our universe, this process has reached the point where everyone is able to experience the 'containers' but very few can glimpse even a hint of the 'light' within.  We can see or read the words on paper, but we don't always sense the idea they represent.
     And yet this is precisely what G-d wants:  that our 'dark' and 'lowly' world obscure its connection to the divine, so that man, out of his own free will, would choose to peel back the successive layers of the container to reveal the light.  And to facilitate that process G-d created different steps along the way, a ladder by which man can climb ever upward and unite with his creator.
     ...
     To this end, we have the Bible--the ultimate metaphor, for it is G-d's pure wisdom manifested in language that we are allowed to comprehend.  By studying the Bible, we unite with G-d's wisdom, and by performing the commandments as instructed therein, we actualize G-d's will.  This is the means by which we take the first solid steps toward a unity with G-dliness, by which we can cross the divide between our limited reality and G-d's infinite reality.  The first step is to acknowledge the need for such unity, which means understanding how the two realities came into being.
     Light, with all its paradoxical qualities, is our best metaphor for understanding the process of creation.  We speak of 'enlightenment' that dispels the darkness of ignorance, of a 'ray of hope' penetrating the blackness of despair, of a 'divine light' that bathes a soul in virtue.....Everything you do becomes a metaphor for revealing G-d's light.  And that is true unity," (ibid).

92 comments:

  1. This statement can also be applied to your yeshua...As according to your NT, he said this about himself:

    John 14:28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, **for the Father is greater than I.**

    That's right...According to your NT, jesus said, "FOR THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I."

    So if you want to continue to abuse Rabbinic literature and assume that its "applies to yeshua," and your idolatrous understanding of his supposed deity, then I will do the same with your NT.

    I will also abuse its context and apply this statement made by jesus himself to nullify any claims of jesus's supposed "divinity" elsewhere in your NT...

    Peter, if you must sink so low in order to attempt to demonstrate your views on jesus by distorting Rabbinic literature, what does that tell you about your position?

    When your views on jesus's supposed divinity are thwarted by the Tanach itself, (Deut 4:9-19 for example, which explicitly commands Israel not to worship G-d in any form, including man) you either resort to abusing Rabbinic literature and falsely attributing it to jesus, or you pick a random liberal scholar to quote from and shift the entire conversation over to "does G-d have a body?" completely ignoring the fact that even if you could answer this question definitively, (you cannot) you would still have no proof that your jesus is the representation of said "body." (Not to mention the fact that jesus never claimed to be "the angel of the Lord" as you christians love to eisegetically assume was jesus, despite the lack of evidence.)

    So your battle is fruitless. You can quote all the liberal scholars you want. You can abuse all the Rabbinic literature you want. But your case for jesus will never fly. Why?

    1. Deuteronomy 4:9-19 explicitly forbids the worship of ANY FORM including man.

    2. Your jesus never claimed to be "the angel of the Lord," or any other angel who appeared to people in the Tanach. And even if you could prove that he did (he did not) you would still have no means of proving this.

    The big elephant in the room is that you do not want to deal with the fact that jesus failed to fulfill the Messianic prophesies of the Tanach. Instead of addressing this issue, you are instead hopelessly obsessed with proving that "G-d has a body," and then, after cherry pick and abuse sources from Rabbinic literature and liberal Jewish scholars that agree with your confirmation bias concerning G-d supposedly "having a body," you then illogically attribute this "body" to jesus, giving no tangible evidence for this supposed phenomenon other than the NT's claims about jesus.

    You see, it's very obvious to me that your faith in jesus is dwindling by the second. You do not have answers, so instead, you ignore the Messianic prophesies and focus in the supposed "divinity" of the Messiah and abuse Rabbinic sources in order to make it appear as though Rabbinic Judaism supports your ideas and that the Rabbis "knew all along that the Messiah was supposedly divine, but they were just blind to jesus."

    Do you take the Rambam for a fool?! How about Rashi? How about the Saadia Gaon?
    How about Rabbi Akiva? How about Rav Hillel?

    None of these individuals believed in your jesus or a "divine messiah." Yet, I'm sure somehow you will distort their Rabbinic writings and try and tell me that they did or that they mentioned it but "just didn't realize what they were saying," much like you are attempting to do with the Lubavitcher Rebbe in your post.

    Maybe it's time for you to do a self reflection, Peter...Maybe jesus was not who he claimed to be...And maybe...just maybe...He never claimed what you think he did...

    Shalom

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    Replies
    1. "Unknown,"

      RE: "1. Deuteronomy 4:9-19 explicitly forbids the worship of ANY FORM including man."

      G-d has a form (Gen. 1:26). So, according to your interpretation of Deuteronomy, we're not allowed to worship G-d?

      RE: "John 14:28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, **for the Father is greater than I.**"

      Yeshua is the "Word" of G-d. Yet there is much more to G-d than just His "Word." The Father is the aspect of the G-dhead that speaks and sends forth the "Word". This is why Yeshua said the Father was greater.

      To use an analogy, just because the core of the sun is greater than the corona of the sun doesn't mean that the corona is not still part of the sun.

      The "Word" of G-d, the Memra, is that which made everything in the Universe--it is the very Shekhina itself.

      RE: "The big elephant in the room is that you do not want to deal with the fact that jesus failed to fulfill the Messianic prophesies of the Tanach."

      By all means, let's talk. Which Messianic prophecy disqualifies Yeshua in your opinion? Let's see your argument.

      Delete
    2. Peter, there is a very basic concept that you are willfully ignoring in order for you to put up your "does G-d have a form" argument.

      When it comes to idolatry, it does not matter whether or not G-d "has" a form or "can have" a form.

      What matters is what G-d COMMANDS US to do concerning worship.

      G-d is all powerful, so there is no problem with G-d theoretically being capable of "having" a form.

      But, according to Numbers 23:19, G-d does not lie. And we both know that according to Deut 4:9-19, G-d is commanding Israel not to worship Him in ANY FORM.

      It makes no difference if G-d "has" a form or not. What matters is that G-d explicitly told Israel not to worship Him in ANY FORM.

      This command effectively serves as a promise that G-d will never assume a form for Israel to acknowledge and worship. Otherwise, G-d's explicit command to Israel not to worship Him in ANY FORM would be a lie!

      You and other christians insist that Deut 4:9-19 does not prohibit G-d from revealing Himself in a form in the future. But this simply isn't true! G-d makes it explicitly clear that Israel is to teach this prohibition of all form worship to their children, just like the Shema.

      So you can either continue to obsess on "G-d having a body" and spin your wheels over a dead argument that does nothing for your position on jesus but make you look ignorant to G-d's commands, or you can be honest and acknowledge G-d's explicit prohibition for Israel not to worship Him in any form, regardless of His ability to assume a form...

      Your position makes G-d into a liar, Peter...Are you seriously ok with this?

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    3. "Unknown,"

      You're contradicted yourself. You say:

      "G-d is all powerful, so there is no problem with G-d theoretically being capable of "having" a form."

      And yet you say:

      "What matters is that G-d explicitly told Israel not to worship Him in ANY FORM."

      You said we CANNOT worship His form and yet you admit He CAN have a form. This is a contradiction! : )

      By the way, Yeshua was not made. As the Word of G-d, He has always existed. So He cannot be an idol (which by definition is something made by man which is incorporated into self-deluded self-worship).

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    4. Peter, are you deliberatively ignoring what I am saying?

      I did not contradict myself. To demonstrate this, I will ask you this simple question:

      Do you believe that G-d may assume the form of a golden calf in the future? Do you entertain this possibility? Why or why not?

      I look forward to your honest answer.

      And as far as your jesus "not being made," aside from being an empty claim with no tangible support other than your own misplaced faith, Deuteronomy 4:9-19 does not make an exception for "forms that always existed" as being permissible for worship...

      Your desperate attempts to make me appear to "contradict myself," you are ignoring the fact that it is you who are turning G-d into a liar by assuming that he would assume the form of man for us to worship.

      Now answer my question honestly: Would G-d assume the form of a golden calf? Why or why not?

      Shalom

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    5. "Unknown,"

      G-d will not assume the form of a Golden Calf, in my opinion, because that form does not reflect the Divine Image. Rather, Genesis says that the human form reflects the Divine Image. Furthermore, Torah says that He has appeared and will appear in the form of a man. Observe:

      "26 And above the expanse over their heads there was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like sapphire; and seated above the likeness of a throne was a likeness with a human appearance. 27 And upward from what had the appearance of his waist I saw as it were gleaming metal, like the appearance of fire enclosed all around. And downward from what had the appearance of his waist I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and there was brightness around him. 28 Like the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud on the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness all around.
      Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard the voice of one speaking," Ezekiel 1:26-28.

      "Thus declares the Lord...'And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that,when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn,'" Zechariah 12:1,10

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    6. Peter, why do you limit G-d?! Why do you only assume He can only turn into a human being?! Why not a golden calf, too?!

      See, I can play this silly game, too, Peter...

      Weren't you arguing earlier that G-d assumed the form of a pillar of fire? Knowing that you tried to argue this earlier in order to justify your worship of jesus, what is stoping Him from assuming the form of a golden calf? Using your logic, G-d can assume any form He wants, so you have no reason to assume that this is limited to "only man," especially since you literally argued earlier that G-d assume the form of fire, and even the Holy Temple!

      You want to create loopholes for your jesus, but you ignore the fact that by making these loopholes, you are allowing other loopholes into the mix...

      Why don't you read the text for what it is, Peter? G-d forbids the worship of ANY FORM, including man, fire, and stone Temple walls...

      Thus, the worship of your jesus is idolatry.

      Concerning Zechariah 12:10, notice that the verse mentions that the House of David will be looking on the one who was “pierced.” Will the Messiah be from the House of David, Thundercracker? We both know the answer is yes…This means that the individual who is being “pierced” in Zechariah 12:10 does not refer to the Messiah son of David. Otherwise, the verse would say that David was the one being pierced!

      But that's not what it says...

      So your strawman attempt just sank you deeper into the hole...

      Your jesus is not the Messiah.


      Shalom and G-d bless!

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    7. "Unknown,"

      Hold it right there, friend. A pillar of fire most certainly reflects the Divine Image. Is it not written that G-d is a consuming fire?

      Delete
    8. It does not say that we are to acknowledge the fire as our "lord and savior" and worship the "fire person" of your make believe trinity...Or "quadrinity" in your case. (father, son, holy spirit, and holy "fire.")

      Your argument ignores G-d's explicit commands not to worship Him in any form in Deut 4:9-19. But instead of heeding that command, you are justifying worshipping jesus, a human being and even a pillar of fire!

      What is stopping you from worshipping a golden calf, too? According to your interpretation of Deut 4:9-19, there's nothing stopping G-d from doing this in the future, right? ;-)

      Congratulations! You just ignored G-d's words in place of idolatry!

      Please open your eyes, Peter...

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    9. Unknown,

      So if the fire of the L-rd appears to you, since you believe it is idolatry to worship it, what are you going to do? Casually read a newspaper and finish your cup of coffee?

      Delete
    10. There is a difference between acknowledging a miracle of G-d and worshipping that miracle.

      When G-d caused the sea to split, the Israelites did not worship the sea.

      Likewise, we are not permitted to worship the sea...Or the pillar of flame that followed the Israelites in the desert.

      Form worship is forbidden. You are conflating worship of G-d with miracles of G-d. Forms are not permissible for worship. Period...

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    11. Unknown,

      RE: "Form worship is forbidden."

      According to you, G-d can manifest in a form. Also, according to you, we are prohibited from worship a form. Therefore, you are arguing that if G-d appears in a form then we are required to not worship Him.

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    12. Peter, my argument is that G-d has the ability to take on the form of a man just as much as He has the ability to take on the form of a man. G-d is all powerful.

      But G-d also makes it explicitly clear that Israel is not to worship Him in any form in Deut 4:9-19. So it doesn't matter if G-d theoretically "could" take on a form. The question you need to ask yourself is "WOULD G-d take on a form"!

      The answer to this is a big emphatic NO! G-d will not take on a form because G-d explicitly commands Israel not to worship Him in any form.

      So there isn't a question as to whether or not G-d will appear in a form for Israel to worship because G-d explicitly commanded Israel not to worship Him in any form. This is essentially a promise that He will not appear to us in any form.

      So if you worship a form, then you are committing idolatry...

      Simple!

      Delete
    13. Unknown,

      It is quite simple. You're reading in a prohibition that does not exist. The Torah prohibits making an idol in any form. It does not prohibit man from worshiping whatever form G-d chooses to take.

      Simple.

      Delete
    14. So what is preventing G-d from choosing to take the form of a golden calf, Peter?

      What is stopping G-d from choosing to take the form of Adam, the first man, who was made by G-d and not made by man?!

      What is stopping G-d from choosing to take the form of the sun, the moon, or the stars, which were also made by G-d and not made by man?

      Nothing...Not according to your eisegetical interpretation of the passage...

      By trying to restrict this prohibition to "man made images," you are effectively allowing for the potential worship of the sun, the moon, the stars, Adam, and other various images that were not created by human hands.

      But I guess, that doesn't matter to you... Just so that you can irrationally justify your idolatrous worship of jesus...

      Quite sad...

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    15. Unknown,

      If a man worships the stars as gods then this is idolatry because man would be imputing god-ness to something that is not god. But if man worships a manifestation of G-d then man has not imputed a false god-ness to the object; worshiping an actual manifestation of G-d is permissible because it does not involve the pride of imputing false god-ness to an object that is not G-d.

      Delete
    16. Unknown,

      So let's break this down:

      (1) if G-d manifests and I worship the form of the manifestation then I have not committed idolatry because I have not out of pride created a false god in my mind but, rather, I would have acknowledged something real;
      (2) the Torah says that G-d appears as a man!

      I would like to see you dispute either of these 2 points.

      Delete
    17. But according to you, G-d may choose to assume the form of a man...If this is true, then why would G-d make a prohibition against worshipping the form of man in Deut 4:16?!

      And please keep in mind, that if you restrict this to "man made images," you are justifying the potential worship of Adam, as he was not "man made," but rather, directly created by G-d Himself.

      So why couldn't G-d "choose" to assume the form of Adam? Or why couldn't He "choose" to assume the form of the sun?

      Your interpretation of Deut 4:9-19 makes G-d into a liar.

      You're essentially interpreting G-d's prohibition against form worship as a "just kidding" sort of commandment...It's as if you are interpreting Deut 4:9-19 as saying "yeah, forget about that commandment. Now you need to worship my son who is also me and always was me but I just didn't show him to you. Just forget about that 'not worshipping any form' thing. I was totally kidding about that!"

      This is your "god" Peter...Your god is certainly not the G-d I worship...My G-d does not lie...Apparently, yours does...

      Delete
  2. Your jesus cannot be Moshiach for a number of reasons:

    1. He failed to fulfill the Messianic prophesies. (Isaiah 11, Hosea 3:5, and Ezekiel 37:24-28, just to name a few.)

    2. Your NT distorts the Tanach and attributes prophesies that are not exclusively to the Messiah and flippantly applies them to jesus in order to build a weak case for him as a Messianic candidate. (Matthew's abuse of Isaiah 7:14 and Hosea 11:1 are two prime examples of this. Psalms 110 is another good example.)

    3. If your jesus indeed claimed to be “divine,” this would actually prove jesus to be a false prophet!

    Deut 13:2-6 tells us that if a person claiming to be a prophet of G-d performs a miraculous feat, but tells us to worship other gods that we have not know, we are STILL to REJECT THAT PROPHET.

    Deut 13:2. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,

    (lets say jesus claims he will be killed and resurrect himself on the third day!)

    Deut 13:3. *and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens,* [and he] says, “Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,”

    (lets say jesus actually is killed and he does resurrect himself on the third day! But he asks us to WORSHIP HIM, despite the fact that the Jewish people were never instructed by Hashem in the Torah to worship jesus.)

    Deut 13:4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.

    (Then we shall NOT heed the words of jesus, because Hashem is TESTING US.)

    Deut 13:5. You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.

    Deut 13:6. And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst.

    So there is overwhelming evidence against jesus concerning his supposed "messianic status."

    Shalom

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    Replies
    1. "Unknown,"

      A cogent argument has the following formula: reasons + evidence. And the evidence must be shown to support the reasons.

      However, your argument goes like this:

      Reason: certain prophecies disqualify Yeshua

      Evidence: Isaiah 11, Hosea 3:5, and Ezekiel 37:24-28

      That's not an argument because you just quoted verses without explaining how they are connected to your reason.

      Would you like to try again? This time make your argument cogent by explaining how those particular verses provide supporting evidence for your reason. Show the readers (and me) a little respect by doing more than just citing references.

      Shalom

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    2. You already know the reasons, Peter. Why are you playing dumb with me?

      Isaiah 11 speaks of an era of world peace. This did not happen during the time of jesus.

      Hosea 3:5 speaks of the Messiah coming at the end of days. Moreover, the context shows us that Israel will be "without a king" for many many years before the coming of Moshiach at the end of days, as Hosea 3:4 states:

      Hosea 3:4 For the children of Israel shall remain for many days, having neither king, nor prince, nor sacrifice, nor pillar, nor ephod nor seraphim.

      Hosea 3:5 Afterwards shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God and David their king, and they shall come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness at the end of days.

      There is no mention of David coming "before" this time or that we will "miss" our Messiah, as you christians love to eisegetically assume based off of your distortion of Daniel 9 and the false notion that the Messiah "had to come before the destruction of the Second Temple," as many christians mindlessly parrot concerning Dr. Brown's popular strawman argument on this matter...

      Ezekiel 37:24-28 speaks explicitly concerning the Messiah ruling in his Temple forever. Your jesus does not rule in the Temple, nor did he ever rule as king at all in any tangible sense. Thus, your assertion that he is "king" is completely wishful thinking on your part and has no basis on reality.

      Shalom

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    3. "Unknown,"

      The Talmud says that there will be 2 Messiahs, one of whom gets killed! So much for your argument that Yeshua had to do everything at one time.

      Now here's something for you to consider:

      The Rabbis say (in Sukkah 52a) that Zechariah 12:10 refers to a Messiah who dies:

      " 'And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son,'" Zechariah 12:10

      The Rabbis actually say that this was Moshiach ben Yoseph! : )

      I love it.

      Note that in Zech. 12:10 G-d says that Israel will look upon HIM and that HE had been pierced. This is a Divine Messiah who dies. This passage is connected to other similar passages:

      "For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet," Psalm 22:16

      "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed," Isaiah 53:5

      So the Rabbis say ANOTHER Moshiach must arise: the Moshiach ben David. In other words, the Rabbis acknowledge that these prophecies cannot be fulfilled all at once.

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    4. I guess you forgot about the part where Moshiach ben Yosef is said to be of the tribe of Ephraim and not Judah...

      In other words, Moshiach ben Yosef is said to be a different person than Moshiach ben David.

      But your NT said jesus was supposedly of the tribe of Judah. (Of course, he couldn't be if there was a "virgin birth" because tribal heritage only goes through the father.")

      Oops...

      And you know as well as I do that Isaiah 53:5 is described as referring to the suffering of Israel, Messiah included...

      So you keep abusing Rabbinic literature, Peter. Keep showing us how ridiculous it is to believe in your pagan man god...

      Shalom

      Delete
    5. Unknown,

      RE: "I guess you forgot about the part where Moshiach ben Yosef is said to be of the tribe of Ephraim and not Judah..."

      The Rabbis believe in 2 Messiahs; I believe in only 1. However, I have common ground with the Rabbis: they believe the Messianic prophecies cannot be fulfilled simultaneously because THE PROPHECY SAYS THE MESSIAH MUST DIE. So they invented ANOTHER Messiah who dies.

      RE: "And you know as well as I do that Isaiah 53:5 is described as referring to the suffering of Israel, Messiah included..."

      The Rabbis say that the Messiah will be pierced and killed. They base their opinion on Messianic prophecies that say the Messiah will be pierced and killed. And what happens in Isaiah 53? A Messianic figure is pierced and killed. Do you see any similarities? : )



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    6. Peter, the Rabbis did not "make up" the concept of Moshiach ben Yosef. It's right in the Tanach for you to see:

      Obadiah 1:18 And the house of Jacob shall be fire and the **house of JOSEPH a flame,** and the house of Esau shall become stubble, and they shall ignite them and consume them, and the house of Esau shall have no survivors, for the Lord has spoken.

      The role of Moshiach ben Yosef is to defeat Edom. There are various Rabbinic opinions on how this will play out, but you are being disingenuous by asserting that there is no reference to Moshiach ben Yosef in the Tanach...

      And the Rabbis do not say that the Messiah son of David must be "pierced and killed" and nor does Zechariah 12:10, as I already explained to you:

      Notice that the verse mentions that the House of David will be looking on the one who was “pierced.” Will the Messiah be from the House of David, Thundercracker? We both know the answer is yes…This means that the individual who is being “pierced” in Zechariah 12:10 does not refer to the Messiah son of David. Otherwise, the verse would say that David was the one being pierced!

      But that's not what it says...

      So your strawman attempt just sank you deeper into the hole...

      Your jesus is not the Messiah.


      Shalom and G-d bless!

      Delete
  3. Concerning Isaiah 53, in order to determine who the servant is, we need to look at the context. Isaiah 49:3-6 is a good place to start.

    Isaiah 49:3. And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."

    Isaiah 49:4. And I said, "I toiled in vain, I consumed my strength for nought and vanity." Yet surely my right is with the Lord, and my deed is with my God.

    Isaiah 49:5. And now, the Lord, Who formed me from the womb as a servant to Him, said to bring Jacob back to Him, and Israel shall be gathered to Him, and I will be honored in the eyes of the Lord, and my God was my strength.

    Isaiah 49:6. And He said, "It is too light for you to be My servant, to establish the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the besieged of Israel, but I will make you a light of nations, so that My salvation shall be until the end of the earth."

    So how is this reconciled? How can Israel bring back Israel? The answer is simple! Isaiah 49:3 refers to a specific part of Israel, namely the righteous remnant. (G-d promised a righteous remnant of Israel throughout all generations.) Verse 5 refers to the remnant bringing back the rest of Israel back to righteousness. And finally, verse 6 refers to the newly restored Israel being "light to the nations" through the revelation of truth through Hashem.

    In other words, this is a two step process:

    1. The righteous remnant of Israel will bring back the rest of Israel to righteousness. (Isaiah 49:3-5)

    2. The newly restored nation of Israel will serve to be a "light to the nations." (Isaiah 49:6)

    So ultimately, the nation of Israel is the servant who will be "a light unto the nations." However, in order to get to that point, the righteous remnant of Israel will first gather back the rest of Israel back to Torah. It's a two step process.

    The servant is the righteous remnant of ISRAEL.

    Isaiah 51:7. Hearken to Me, you who know righteousness, a people that has My Torah in their heart, fear not reproach of man, and from their revilings be not dismayed.

    This is yet another verse which highlights the suffering of G-d righteous servant, Israel. Isaiah 54 even refers to the "SERVANTS of the Lord"!

    Isaiah 54:17. Any weapon whetted against you shall not succeed, and any tongue that contends with you in judgment, you shall condemn; this is the heritage of the SERVANTS OF THE LORD and their due reward from Me, says the Lord.

    Isaiah 52:15 describes the gentiles kings who will shut their mouths because of their astonishment of Israel's vindication by Hashem:

    Isaiah 52:15 So shall he cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.

    Micah 7:16-17 echoes this sentiment:

    Micah 7:16. Nations shall see and be ashamed of all their might-they shall place a hand upon their mouth; their ears shall become deaf.

    Micah 7:17. They shall lick the dust as a snake, as those who crawl on the earth. They shall quake from their imprisonment; they shall fear the Lord, our God, and they shall fear you.

    Also, Isaiah 60:14 speaks of the future Israel who was previously despised by the nations as being vindicated at the end of days, also echoing in line with the suffering/despised servant of Isaiah 53:

    Isaiah 60:14And the children of your oppressors shall go to you bent over, and **THOSE WHO DESPISED YOU** shall prostrate themselves at the soles of your feet, and they shall call you 'the city of the Lord, Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

    So there you have it. The suffering servant of Isaiah 53 ultimately is the nation of Israel. **Please not that the Messiah is a part of Israel, so in that sense, Isaiah 53 refers to the Messiah.**

    The Tanach says this and the Rabbis concur. You have no where to run on this one, Peter...

    Shalom

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  4. Peter,

    I see you take hold to the hypstatic Union. Are You implying Yeshua cheated? Be careful my friend, your saying Yeshua is divine. I'm ok with that. Moshe was viewed as divine, yet he was not viewed as being the Almighty. If your advocating the hypostaic Union which I think you are. This would indicate to us when Yeshua was tempted it was for nothing because he couldn't lose.

    Shalom

    "Unknown" my friend. I see your hammering away back at it. Lol.

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    Replies
    1. Gifted,

      "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God," John 1:1

      "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily," Colossians 2:9

      Is it your position that the Word (Yeshua) was NOT G-d?

      Is it your position that in Him (Yeshua) does NOT dwell the fullness of the G-dhead bodily?

      Delete
  5. Peter, you never answered my question. You answered a question with a question. Nevertheless, I'll await your answer. Also, the word (logos) implied something was said. The definition is (something said/ or plan). This doesn't indicate Yeshua preexistence. This correlated with Tehillim 33:6 "By Adonai’s word were the heavens made, and all their host by the breath of His mouth." The name & plan of the messiah was preordained from the foundation of the world. “His name shall endure forever; His name shall continue as long as the sun. And men shall be blessed in Him; All nations shall call Him blessed” (Tehillim/Psalms 72:17).”

    ReplyDelete
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    1. "Gifted,"

      The answer to your question is this: No, I don't think Yeshua "cheated."

      Now answer my questions.

      Delete
  6. "See, I can play this silly game, too, Peter..."

    No you can't...

    In Gen. 18 Abraham worshiped God in the image of man. And don't tell us it was an angel. An Angel is not "the Judge of all the earth." (V. 25).

    ReplyDelete
  7. Dan, Genesis 18 says that the three individuals who Abraham encountered were "men" or "anashim" in Hebrew. (Genesis 18:3) The "man in question" is mentioned on par with the other two men.

    So you ask me how I know this man is an angel? In order to come to this conclusion, we need to evaluate the totality of scripture. In Genesis 32, Jacob encounters another "man." (Genesis 32:25.) This same "man" is referred to as an "angel" in Hosea 12:5, literally using the Hebrew word "malach." Why is this significant you ask? Well remember the three "men" who Abraham encountered in Genesis 18:3? Two of those "men" are explicitly referred to as "angel" or "malachim" in Genesis 19:1! So if the two "men" who appeared to Abraham can be referred to as "angels" and "men" interchangeably, surely the "man" who Jacob encountered in Genesis 32:25 can also be referred to as an "angel," just as Hosea 12:5 says! By the same token, the three "men" who appeared to Abraham in Genesis 18 are also understood to be "angels." It doesn't say "two men and one godman." You're the one who is eisegetically adding that to the text!

    My interpretation is consistent with other angelic appearances found within the Tanach. Yours is completely without foundation, Dan. You are randomly assigning the title "pre-incarnate jesus angel" to anonymous angels who aren't even referred to in the same manner in scripture. For example, the angel "in question" in Genesis 18 is not referred to as "angel of the Lord." Yet you and other christians wish to peddle the title "angel of the Lord" as a code word for "jesus angel." You have given no effective way to differentiate between these supposed "jesus angels" and "just regular old angels." Is the "the angel of the Lord" mentioned in Zechariah 3 synonymous with "the angel of the Lord" mentioned in Exodus 3? Why or why not?

    And for Peter, is this the same "jesus angel" that you are asserting is being spoken of in Ezekiel chapter 1? What is the standard for determining such? Is it simply based off of the title "angel of the Lord"? If not, then what is the standard? Thus far I have seen none from either you or Peter. This is completely a "shot in the dark" approach and has no foundation in scripture...

    Ultimately, Deuteronomy 4:9-19 thwarts any eisegetical attempt made by a christian to try and deify angels in the Tanach. Your "great jesus angel hunt" is a wild goose chase. If you want to disobey G-d's explicit commands not to worship Him in any form, then that's your prerogative...

    And that's a real shame...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Unknown,

      2 points:

      Idolatry involves man's prideful worship of a self-created fantasy that a certain object is G-d. However, if man worships a physical manifestation of the true G-d then this is not idolatry because man has not pridefully worshiped a self-created fantasy.

      Second, there are plenty of places in Torah where G-d manifests as a man:

      26 And above the expanse over their heads there was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like sapphire; and seated above the likeness of a throne was a likeness with a human appearance. 27 And upward from what had the appearance of his waist I saw as it were gleaming metal, like the appearance of fire enclosed all around. And downward from what had the appearance of his waist I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and there was brightness around him. 28 Like the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud on the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness all around.
      Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard the voice of one speaking," Ezekiel 1:26-28.

      "Thus declares the Lord...'And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that,when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn,'" Zechariah 12:1,10

      Delete
    2. This question is whether or not WORSHIPING G-d as a "form" is is considered idolatry. According to Deuteronomy 4:9-19, we are not to worship G-d in ANY FORM. As I state in my previous posts, this prohibition is not limited to "man made forms." Adam, the first man, was not made by man, but rather, made by G-d. But I'm sure we both agree that Adam is not suitable for worship. Likewise, the moon, the sun, and the stars are clearly prohibited for worship...But it clearly states that they are all prohibited for worship in Deuteronomy 4:19.

      So yes, there is a prohibition against worshipping a form. This is precisely why G-d emphasizes the fact that Israel SAW NO FORM in Deuteronomy 4:12

      Deut 4:12. The Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of the words, **BUT SAW NO IMAGE,** just a voice.

      And again in Deut 4:15

      Deut 4:15. And you shall watch yourselves very well, for **YOU DID NOT SEE ANY IMAGE** on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire.

      As you know, Deut 4:16-19 goes on to prohibit the worship of ANY FORM, be it "man made" or not!

      Deut 4:16. Lest you become corrupt and make for yourselves a graven image, the representation of ANY FORM, the likeness of MALE or female,
      Deut 4:17. the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the heaven,
      Deut 4:18. the likeness of anything that crawls on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters, beneath the earth.
      Deut 4:19. And lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and see the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, which the Lord your God assigned to all peoples under the entire heaven, and be drawn away to prostrate yourselves before them and worship them.
      Peter, from this passage, we see two explicit themes:

      1. G-d is explicitly commanding Israel not to worship Him in any form. (Deut 4:16)

      2. G-d is explicitly commanding Israel to teach this to their children and their children’s children, even after they come to the land of Israel. (Deut 4:9-14)

      Concerning Zechariah 12:10, notice that the verse mentions that the House of David will be looking on the one who was “pierced.” Will the Messiah be from the House of David, Peter? We both know the answer is yes…This means that the individual who is being “pierced” in Zechariah 12:10 does not refer to the Messiah son of David. Otherwise, the verse would say that David was the one being pierced!

      But that's not what it says...

      So your strawman attempt just sank you deeper into the hole...

      Your jesus is not the Messiah.

      Delete
    3. Unknown,

      You're taking Deuteronomy out of context. Just because G-d didn't reveal Himself on Sinai doesn't mean He will NEVER reveal Himself. He already said in Genesis that He has a form and that He made man to match that form. And He says elsewhere in Torah that He will reveal His form as a man.

      You are rejecting the context of Scripture so that you can interpret things the way you want.

      RE: "Will the Messiah be from the House of David, Peter? We both know the answer is yes…This means that the individual who is being “pierced” in Zechariah 12:10 does not refer to the Messiah son of David. Otherwise, the verse would say that David was the one being pierced!"

      Why can't the Messiah son of David be pierced and die? Why do you reject this as a possibility when the possibility is right there staring you in the face?

      Delete
    4. Peter, then I guess you believe G-d was lying when He said this:

      Deut 4:9. But beware and watch yourself very well, lest you forget the things that your eyes saw, and lest these things depart from your heart, all the days of your life, **AND YOU SHALL MAKE THEM KNOWN TO YOUR CHILDREN AND YOUR CHILDREN'S CHILDREN**

      Here we see that G-d is commanding Israel to teach these things throughout their generations. **G-d is directly telling Israel to teach their children** about the things they saw and the things on their hearts. What are these things you ask? Lets continue reading:

      Deut 4:10. the day you stood before the Lord your God at Horeb, when the Lord said to me, “Assemble the people for Me, and I will let them hear My words, that they may learn to fear Me all the days that they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children.

      Deut 4:11. And you approached and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire up to the midst of the heavens, with darkness, a cloud, and opaque darkness.

      Deut 4:12. The Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of the words, **BUT SAW NO IMAGE,** just a voice.
      Here we have G-d explaining to the children of Israel what they “saw.”

      Notice that what they “saw” was no image according to G-d Himself! Moving on…

      Deut 4:13. And He told you His covenant, which He commanded you to do, the Ten Commandments, and He inscribed them on two stone tablets.

      Deut 4:14. And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and ordinances, so that you should do them in the land to which you are crossing, to possess.

      This verse is important to read in context with the next few verses because it reiterates the fact that these commands are not just a “one time deal.”

      Rather, G-d is commanding Israel not to worship Him in any form throughout all our generations! With this in mind, lets continue reading:

      Deut 4:15. And you shall watch yourselves very well, for you did not see any image on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire.

      Deut 4:16. Lest you become corrupt and make for yourselves a graven image, the representation of ANY FORM, the likeness of MALE or female,

      Deut 4:17. the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the heaven,

      Deut 4:18. the likeness of anything that crawls on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters, beneath the earth.

      Deut 4:19. And lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and see the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, which the Lord your God assigned to all peoples under the entire heaven, and be drawn away to prostrate yourselves before them and worship them.

      Peter, from this passage, we see two explicit themes:

      1. G-d is explicitly commanding Israel not to worship Him in any form. (Deut 4:16)

      2. G-d is explicitly commanding Israel to teach this to their children and their children’s children, even after they come to the land of Israel. (Deut 4:9-14)

      So this isn't just a "one time deal" command Peter...This prohibition against form worship extends to this very day!

      Delete
    5. Concerning Zechariah 12:10, Jews and Christians can agree on other passages referring exclusively to the Messiah SON OF DAVID! Here are a few:

      Isaiah 11:1. And a shoot shall spring forth from the **STEM OF JESSE,** and a twig shall sprout from his roots.

      Ezekiel 37:24. And **MY SERVANT DAVID** shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all, and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them.

      Hosea 3:5. Afterwards shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God and **DAVID THEIR KING,** and they shall come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness at the end of days.

      Jeremiah 30:9. And they shall serve the Lord their God and **DAVID THEIR KING,** whom I will set up for them.

      There is one thing all of these verses have in common: They all use a “Davidic qualifier,” meaning that they all exclusively refer to the Davidic dynasty in some fashion. (David/Jesse) This is why Jews and Christians can all understand that these future prophesies refer to one person: Moshiach ben David.

      However, Zechariah 12:10 makes no mention of this "pierced" individual having any exclusive association with the kingdom of David.

      And so, you have no reason to assume that this prophesy applies to the Messiah son of David, especially since the passage says that the House of David pierced this individual...Not the other way around as you want it to say...

      Tough luck!

      Delete
    6. Of course, the actual text doesn't necessarily imply that the House of David pierced this individual...But I'm going off of your christian translation...

      Either way, the individual being "pierced" is not mentioned to be of the House of David...

      So stop insisting that this person must be Moshiach ben David..

      Delete
    7. "Unknown,"

      Prideful man makes an idol out of a form that is not G-d; but a truly humble man sees the form of G-d because it says:

      "Now the man Moses was very humble, more than any man who was on the face of the earth"

      And:

      With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses?"

      Delete
    8. There ya go Peter! You actually brought up an interesting point:

      But unfortunately for your argument, you are flippantly using Moses’s revelation as the standard for all of Israel. Deut 4:9-19 was a commandment for ALL ISRAEL. It explicitly states that we are not to acknowledge G-d IN ANY FORM! G-d speaks to Aaron and Miriam in Numbers 12:6-8 concerning what makes Moses different from all other prophets, **INCLUDING AARON** (This is the key)

      Numbers 12:6. He said, “Please listen to My words. If there be prophets among you, [I] the Lord will make Myself known to him in a vision; I will speak to him in a dream.

      Numbers 12:7. Not so is My servant Moses; he is faithful throughout My house.

      Numbers 12:8. With him I speak mouth to mouth; in a vision and not in riddles, and he beholds the image of the Lord. So why were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses ?

      Moses is a UNIQUE prophet in that he is the ONLY PROPHET who “beholds the image of the Lord.” We can debate on what that means, but one thing is clear: MOSES IS THE ONLY PROPHET CAPABLE OF THIS ABILITY!

      At the end of the day, Deut 4:9-19 what we are to go by. If you wish to eisegetically abuse scripture and assume that Moses prayed to jesus, then that’s your idolatrous prerogative. If you want to assume every time an unnamed angel appears to someone in the Tanach, this angel must be a “pre incarnate jesus angel,” then that is your idolatrous prerogative. Just know that the Tanach, nor the NT supports your claims. For jesus didn’t even claim to be these angels!

      G-d gave Israel explicit instructions not to worship Him in ANY FORM. Deut 4:9-19 isn’t going away Peter…Sorry!

      Shabbat Shalom

      Delete
    9. Unknown,

      RE: "but one thing is clear: MOSES IS THE ONLY PROPHET CAPABLE OF THIS ABILITY!"

      2 quick points:

      (1) what about Ezekiel? He saw the form of the L-rd and it looked like a man. So it seems this was not unique to Moses. Rather, it appears that G-d wants to reveal Himself to humble men;

      (2) G-d says that one day everyone will look upon Him:

      "Thus declares the Lord...'And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that,WHEN THEY LOOK ON ME, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn,'" Zechariah 12:1,10

      Delete
    10. G-d said that Moses is the only prophet who sees the "Temunah" of Hashem. You saw the verses in Numbers 12:6-8. So whatever Ezekiel saw was a vision of an angel. Not a true "Temuah" of Hashem Himself.

      Either that or Hashem lied...

      And it appears that you are ok with Hashem lying...

      Well I'm not. Hashem does not lie. What He said to Moses and Israel is true. We are not to worship Him in ANY FORM. Ezekiel's vision can be reconciled as just that... A VISION, as Numbers 12:6 says concerning all other prophets other than Moses:

      Numbers 12:Numbers 12:6. He said, “Please listen to My words. If there be PROPHETS among you, [I] the Lord will make Myself known to him in a VISION; I will speak to him in a DREAM.

      Numbers 12:7. Not so is My servant Moses; he is faithful throughout My house.

      Numbers 12:8. With him I speak mouth to mouth; in a vision and not in riddles, and he beholds the image of the Lord. So why were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses ?

      So whatever Ezekiel saw was a "vision" or a "dream." He did not see what Moses saw. G-d explicitly says that ONLY MOSES experiences the "Temunah" of Hashem.

      So either G-d is a liar, or Ezekiel saw a vision and not an actual "image" of Hashem...

      Take your pick! You take jesus...I'll take G-d!

      Delete
    11. Unknown,

      RE: " G-d explicitly says that ONLY MOSES experiences the "Temunah" of Hashem."

      This is called "making up evidence."

      OBSERVE:

      "Thus says the Lord...when they look upon me..." Zechariah 12.

      ISRAEL WILL SEE G-D!

      Delete
  8. " the three "men" who appeared to Abraham in Genesis 18 are also understood to be "angels." It doesn't say "two men and one godman." You're the one who is eisegetically adding that to the text! "

    Understood? Understood by whom? Now answer my question can an angel be "the Judge of all the world?" (V. 25)

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    Replies
    1. He will be too weakened at this point to respond to you. : )

      He just needs time to pray this over.

      Delete
  9. Dan, the angels had left Abraham by that point in the text, so your question makes no sense. G-d is speaking to Abraham in that verse apart from the angels.

    But even if you were correct and that this was an angel making such a statement, it would not mean that this angel is G-d. We know that angels and prophets speak on behalf of G-d. They are not G-d themselves.

    Deut 4:9-19 isn't going away, Dan...We are not to worship G-d in any form...

    Also, your jesus never claimed to be this angel, so if even if you could prove that this angel is Hashem, (you cannot because of what G-d says in Deut 4:9-19) you still would not be able to prove that this angel is jesus.

    Your jesus never even claimed to be this angel!

    So your entire argument is eisegetical from beginning to end. Deut 4:9-19 ends all argument concerning G-d assuming the form of a man fit for worship. We are not to worship G-d in ANY FORM.

    Shalom

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    1. Unknown,

      If we are not to worship G-d in any form then does that mean that Moses was not allowed to worship G-d? Moses saw the form of G-d!

      If we are not to worship G-d in any form then what is Israel supposed to do when the LOOK UPON G-D?

      "Thus says the Lord...when they look upon me..." Zechariah 12.

      Delete
    2. Peter, whatever Moses "saw," we will never know. Why? Because Numbers 12:6-8 says that ONLY MOSES BEHOLDS the "image" of the Lord!

      If you are trying to tell me that Ezekiel and Moses both "saw" G-d's "image" in the same way, then you are contradicting scripture, as Deut 12:6-8 explicitly states that ONLY MOSES has this ability...

      Your translation of Zechariah 12:10 is somewhat marred. (although no translation is perfect.) Here is what Chabad.org says:

      Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son.

      So take that as you will...

      Shalom

      Delete
    3. Unknown,

      Chabad's translation is simply ridiculous.

      Here is the Hebrew:

      "elai et asher daqaru" (literally "on me the one whom they have pierced")

      And Chabad has the chutzpah to render this as "And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through"? Because of those who have been thrust through?!

      Ridiculous.

      Also, Chabad would have you think "with swords" but in fact the first occurrence of daqaru in the Torah refers to someone being thrust through by a spear (Pinchas got his spear, remember?). So, clearly, Chabad doesn't want anyone to think "spear" in this passage because that would clearly refer to Yeshua's death!

      Delete
  10. See, Peter and Dan, I've debated enough christians to know the contextual abuse that you use to justify "angel worship" in the Tanach. Too bad for you, you won't find and Dr. Brown arguments to deal with the truths that I have shown you. Textual consistency is important to consider and you will find that I have exploited your arguments of which you use to justify your angel worship...

    I'm not your standard counter-missionary on this topic. I've deliberately studied the patterns of contextual abuse that you christians use to justify angel worship.

    Like I said before, Deut 4:9-19 refutes any argument that you try to use to justify angel worship. Your contextual abuse has been exposed.

    So if you want to worship your pretend "jesus angels" that jesus never even claimed to be, thats your prerogative...

    Just know that the Tanach forbids this...

    Such a shame that you ignore Hashem's word in favor of the idolatrous worship of pretend "jesus angels"...

    Shalom

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    1. Unknown,

      Prove it. Answer my questions:

      If we are not to worship G-d in any form then does that mean that Moses was not allowed to worship G-d? Moses saw the form of G-d!

      If we are not to worship G-d in any form then what is Israel supposed to do when the LOOK UPON G-D?

      "Thus says the Lord...when they look upon me..." Zechariah 12.

      Delete
    2. Peter, whatever Moses "saw," we will never know. Why? Because Numbers 12:6-8 says that ONLY MOSES BEHOLDS the "image" of the Lord!

      If you are trying to tell me that Ezekiel and Moses both "saw" G-d's "image" in the same way, then you are contradicting scripture, as Deut 12:6-8 explicitly states that ONLY MOSES has this ability...

      Your translation of Zechariah 12:10 is somewhat marred. (although no translation is perfect.) Here is what Chabad.org says:

      Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son.

      So take that as you will...

      Shalom

      Delete
    3. Unknown,

      Chabad's translation is simply ridiculous.

      Here is the Hebrew:

      "elai et asher daqaru" (literally "on me the one whom they have pierced")

      And Chabad has the chutzpah to render this as "And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through"? Because of those who have been thrust through?!

      Ridiculous.

      Also, Chabad would have you think "with swords" but in fact the first occurrence of daqaru in the Torah refers to someone being thrust through by a spear (Pinchas got his spear, remember?). So, clearly, Chabad doesn't want anyone to think "spear" in this passage because that would clearly refer to Yeshua's death!

      Delete
    4. Unknown,

      Do I need to even point out that this passage says that G-d Himself will be pierced?

      Delete
    5. Do I even need to point out that ancient Rabbinic commentaries acknowledge this verse as referring to Moshiach ben Yosef?

      You even acknowledged this...And we both know that the these Rabbis did not believe that Moshiach ben Yosef was "god in the flesh" as you idolatrously believe about jesus...

      So you think you know Hebrew better than they did?

      Fat chance!

      Delete
  11. "Dan, the angels had left Abraham by that point in the text, so your question makes no sense. G-d is speaking to Abraham in that verse apart from the angels."

    Not according to verse 22. Check the Tikuney sofrim where the scribes changed the end of the verse. Instead "..While the Lord was still standing before Abraham" the scribes changed it to "while Abraham was still standing before the Lord." Why? because the scribes could not bear to write that God is standing before a mortal.

    I am not discussing Jesus with you. I am discussing if the Tanach shows that God can manifest Himself as human. So far you fail miserably....

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    1. Dan Benzvi, your understanding of Genesis 18 is saying that one of these men is actually a divine person worth of worship. You eisegetically assume this. The text does not say explicitly that the angel who told Abraham about his future son was still standing there with Abraham. This is where your eisegesis comes into play.

      If we were to assume your position, then other passages in the Tanach would deify prophets!

      Here is an example. Let’s read Isaiah 7:3-11

      Isaiah 7:3. **AND THE LORD SAID TO ISAIAH,** “Now go out toward Ahaz, you and Shear-Yashuv your son, to the edge of the conduit of the upper pool, to the road of the washer’s field.

      (Here we have it established that Hashem is having Isaiah speak to king Ahaz on His behalf. Moving on.)

      Isaiah 7:4. **AND YOU SHALL SAY TO HIM,** “Feel secure and calm yourself, do not fear, and let your heart not be faint because of these two smoking stubs of firebrands, because of the raging anger of Rezin and Aram and the son of Remaliah.

      (Hashem is making it clear that Isaiah is the one who is speaking to king Ahaz on behalf of Hashem…Moving on.)

      Isaiah 7:5. Since Aram planned harm to you, Ephraim and the son of Remaliah, saying:

      (Isaiah is still speaking here…)

      Isaiah 7:6. ‘Let us go up against Judah and provoke it, and annex it to us; and let us crown a king in its midst, one who is good for us,’

      (Isaiah is still speaking…)

      Isaiah 7:7. So said the Lord God, ‘Neither shall it succeed, nor shall it come to pass.

      (Isaiah is making it clear that he is still speaking on behalf of Hashem as he says “so said the Lord G-d.)

      Isaiah 7:8. For the head of Aram is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and in another sixty-five years, Ephraim shall be broken, no longer to be a people.

      (Isaiah is still speaking)

      Isaiah 7:9. And the head of Ehpraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is the son of Remaliah; if you do not believe, it is because you cannot be believed.”

      (Isaiah is still speaking)

      Isaiah 7:10. **AND THE LORD CONTINUED TO SPEAK TO Ahaz,** saying,

      What a second here Dan! This verse says that THE LORD CONTINUED TO SPEAK TO AHAZ! I thought Isaiah was speaking on behalf of G-d up until this point! That’s what the text say anyway…

      I guess the only way to reconcile this passage is to say that Isaiah is “god in the flesh!” After all, this is how you understand Genesis 18! How could the man who told Abraham about the birth if Isaac have been anyone else but “god in the flesh”?! The text says that Abraham was left standing before G-d, and the text said that he was just speaking to an man…So the only explanation possible is that this man is god in the flesh! So too, how could Isaiah be the speaker when the text clearly says that G-d CONTINUED to speak to Ahaz? The only possible explanation is that Isaiah must be god!

      Right Dan? (Sarcasm)

      Isaiah 7:11. “Ask for yourself a sign from the Lord, your God: ask it either in the depths, or in the heights above.”

      (remember, the LORD is speaking here so this isn’t actually Isaiah speaking. It is G-d! So Isaiah must be god, too according to Dan’s interpretation of Genesis 18…)

      Isaiah 7:12. And Ahaz said, “I will not ask, and I will not test the Lord.”

      Isaiah 7:13. And he said, “Listen now, O House of David, is it little for you to weary men, that you weary my God as well?

      (These verses also might seem like Isaiah is speaking, but Isaiah 7:10 clearly says that G-d was speaking throughout this passage as it states G-d CONTINUED TO SPEAK, thus Isaiah must be god, according to Dan’s logic.)

      It’s a shame I have to go through such a tedious process to show you how you abusing the context of scripture, Dan. If you want to argue that G-d “explicitly said he came in the form of a man to Abraham,” then you must also say that G-d “explicitly said he came in the form of Isaiah.” You would be wise in conceding that your logic is faulty and goes against G-d’s explicit commands to Israel.

      In Deut 4:9-19 G-d does not make an exception for the form of a man. It explicitly says that we are forbidden to worship Hashem in ANY FORM!

      Delete
    2. "Dan Benzvi, your understanding of Genesis 18 is saying that one of these men is actually a divine person worth of worship. You eisegetically assume this."

      Yah, well, I am in good company. The Scribes are with me. Look it up oh, great Guru.....

      Delete
    3. Chazal do not attribute any of these angels as being synonymous with Hashem, Dan...

      And nor does jesus in the NT...

      So you're in double trouble!

      Delete
  12. "I'm not your standard counter-missionary on this topic. I've deliberately studied the patterns of contextual abuse that you christians use to justify angel worship."

    So, ask your teaches for a refund....

    You throw the Exe.. and the eighse...words around but your answer do not go beyond the tired song and dance of the Rabbis when they were trying to explain why the Tanach shows that God shows Himself as man.

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    1. And he needs a refund from Chabad for the way they butchered the Hebrew text of Zechariah 12:10.

      Delete
    2. So you know Hebrew better than the ancient Rabbis who interpreted Zechariah 12:10 as referring to Moshiach ben Yosef being killed by the nations?!

      Or maybe you're just an ignoramus to Tanach/Rabbinic Judaism...

      I'll go with the latter...

      Delete
  13. By the way Dan Benzvi, I hope you know that Concerned Reader has finally rejected christianity. :-D

    It's time you followed suit...

    So I guess I can't be that bad of a counter missionary eh? :-P

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  14. And this is your scholarly answer to the question "Is God appears as a human in the Tanach?

    I have already won......

    If i wanted to deal with novices Il'l go to Gene's blog.....

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    1. My answer to you is Deut 4:9-19, where G-d explicitly promises Israel that He will never appear in ANY FORM for Israel to worship.

      But instead of heeding G-d's, word, you contextually abuse scripture to try and justify the worship of angels.

      As I have already demonstrated, your eisegetical interpretation of Genesis 18 would make Isaiah into a god, using the same logic that you use here...

      Prophets and angels may speak on behalf of G-d. This does not make them G-d.

      Deut 4:9-19 isn't going away Dan...G-d forbids the worship of ANY FORM.

      Your jesus is a false messiah and god...

      Shalom

      Delete
    2. "My answer to you is Deut 4:9-19, where G-d explicitly promises Israel that He will never appear in ANY FORM for Israel to worship."

      So the Tanach contradicts itself. Let's throw it out....in many places God appears as man. I did not recall reading the Angel contradicts Jacob when he said: " I have seen God face to face..." Or maybe you own a different Tanach?

      Delete
    3. Here's the issue with your interpretation. You do not distinguish between COMMANDS which G-d gives to His people Israel, and personal revelations/accounts DESCRIBED by G-d through Moses. (Gen 18 with the 3 angels, Gen 32 with Jacob and the angel etc.) None of the personal revelations/accounts described in these passages include COMMANDS FROM G-D concerning Israel.

      However, passages like Deut 4:9-19, do indeed, speak of COMMANDS concerning Israel. It is important to make this distinction because I'm sure you would agree with me that explicit COMMANDS FROM G-D HIMSELF take precedence over our personal interpretations of personal revelations/accounts described concerning individuals such as Abraham, Jacob, etc. in terms of how we are to understand what G-d expects us to do for Him. When read of out context of these explicit commands from G-d, these personal revelations/accounts can be used to distort G-d's word, as these personal revelation passages, when isolated alone, do not paint the full picture.

      And the word Hebrew used for "god" in "seeing god face to face" is "elohim."

      The word "elohim" is not exclusive to Hashem. In fact, Moses is called "elohim" in Exodus 7:1!

      Exodus 7:1 The Lord said to Moses, "See! I have made you a lord (elohim) over Pharaoh, and Aaron, your brother, will be your speaker.

      So I guess according to your logic, Moses must be the same "god" that Jacob saw! After all, Jacob saw "elohim face to face" and Moses is called "elohim!"

      So I guess Moses is another "person" for you to add to your idolatrous trinity!

      Stop the nonsense Dan...You're making yourself look even more ignorant...

      Delete
  15. "So you know Hebrew better than the ancient Rabbis who interpreted Zechariah 12:10 as referring to Moshiach ben Yosef being killed by the nations?!"

    Can you site the exact words in Zech. 12 where it states "Messiah ben Yosef" and "being killed by the nations?" Or is it maybe because you don't know Hebrew, you believe everything that the Rabbis invented? LOL!

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    1. You don't have to agree with that opinion, Dan...It isn't something that is theologically binding...

      But it is an opinion that has existed for quite a while. I am aware that the verse doesn't explicitly state that this individual is Moshiach ben Yosef. However, it makes more sense than referring to this individual as Moshiach ben David because the verse states that the House of David will be looking upon the "one who was pierced."

      If "the one who was pierce" referred to the Messiah son of David as you and Peter eisegetically insist, then shouldn't the verse say that that David was the one who was pierced!?

      Yet that's not what the text says...

      So you can disagree with the opinion that the verse refers to the death of Moshiach ben Yosef...It makes no difference to me.

      But for you to assert that the death of this individual refers exclusively to Moshiach ben David? That goes against the context of the text...

      Shalom

      Delete
  16. "You don't have to agree with that opinion, Dan...It isn't something that is theologically binding..."

    Nothing the Rabbis say is theologically binding....OOOPS....
    it makes more sense than referring to this individual as Moshiach ben David because the verse states that the House of David will be looking upon the "one who was pierced.""

    And this is the bone that is stuck in your throat, no? God can be Pierced, what a Shandah.....But you of course believe the Hocus Focus of the Rabbis.....And then you have the chutzpah to talk about Eisegetically...? OY....

    "But for you to assert that the death of this individual refers exclusively to Moshiach ben David? That goes against the context of the text.."

    I assert? You are the one who brought messiah ben David to the discussion, not me.....Get a hold of yourself!
    "

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    1. Do you do not believe that Zechariah 12:10 refers to Moshiach ben David, Dan?

      If so, then we are in agreement!

      Delete
  17. It is you and Peter who keep bringing up Zechariah 12:10...I didn't bring it up.

    But you are telling me that you do not believe that the "one who was pierced" refers to Moshiach ben David?

    It appears that this is what you are saying Dan...

    Are you?

    If so, then we can agree on something!

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  18. Also Psalm 8:5 translates elohim as "angels."

    Interesting that you insist that since it says that Jacob "saw "elohim" this must mean that he "saw G-d."

    Considering the fact that the word "elohim" can refer to angels and even Moses himself, your argument is laughable!

    Oh and elohim is also used for FALSE gods in Exodus 20:3!

    So if you want to insist that Jacob must have seen "god in the flesh" because it says he saw "elohim face to face," then I'd say you're ignoring plenty of other possibilities.

    But instead of entertaining that Jacob saw an angel, you'd rather say that the Tanach "contradicts itself."

    Well that's a shame for you, because Hosea 12:5 recounts Jacob's encounter with the "elohim" in question...And guess what it says!

    Hosea 12:5 He strove with **AN ANGEL** (malach) and prevailed; he wept and beseeched him; In Bethel he shall find Him, and there He shall speak with us.

    The Hebrew word used here is "malach" for angel...

    So yes, Jacob wrestled with an angel, not with your pagan man god...

    Shalom

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  19. Peter,

    The discussion is really good, but going back to the root of the post, I think some valuable info got skipped over.

    How many times in the Tanach are we given metaphor that very specifically sets up the Divine Metaphor?

    I'm thinking of the life of Yosef and how it perfectly pictures Yeshua in a hundred plus points from favored son, prophet, sold for silver, rejection, 'death,' burial, 'resurrection from the pit,' sent to the Gentiles, Gentile name and appearance, savior of the world, second in power and authority, Judah and his brothers not recognizing him, bowing to him in the latter days, etc... Then, him revealing himself and they mourn for having put him through it all...

    Or, the Akida... the only favored son on the altar, to be sacrificed by the father, yet it was prophesied before going up the mount that they would be back... Then, 'the Lord will provide himself a lamb...' a veiled prophecy of He being the atonement.... And, it was the Angel of the Lord speaking...

    Story after story after story, picture after picture that are metaphors setting up the Messiah, who then is the culmination of the metaphors.... Essentially, just as you post indicates Solomon did, building the thought process one step at a time, yet mysteriously keeping parts hidden.

    Metaphors. Fascinating!

    Or,

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    1. Pete,

      I love it. That's a whole different level of metaphor. The story of Yeshua haMoshiach is so powerful and central to existence that we see it echoed in not only Biblical stories like you've mentioned but we see it in the very structure of heroic stories themselves throughout different cultures ancient and modern, the story of a hero who chooses to set off on a quest to bring healing to his land, becomes initiated as the hero, faces a road of trials, eventually descends into the netherworld where he overcomes a great enemy, and finally returns to his land with a Divine gift that brings healing to the land.

      G-d loves His Son so much that He gave these stories to the entire world that even a little child might understand the salvation offered through Yeshua.

      It's amazing that anyone could fail to identify Yeshua given the great pains HaShem took in foreshadowing the Messianic story!

      Ah, well...

      Delete
  20. Peter Rambo, since you are so keen on metaphors, how about the ancient Rabbinic interpretation of the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 referring to the nation Israel?!

    Fascinating indeed!

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    1. Unknown,

      Because the rabbis would never in a million years suggest that the Messiah will be pierced and killed, right? Oh, wait that's EXACTLY what they say in Sukkah 52a!!

      Fascinating!

      But hey it couldn't refer to Moschiach ben David, right? Because then that would sound too much like Yeshua. : )

      Delete
  21. Ultimately what it comes down to is this:

    Deuteronomy 4:9-19 explicitly states that we are not to worship G-d in ANY FORM.

    So if you assume otherwise, you are essentially calling G-d a liar.

    It doesn't matter if an angel speaks on behalf of G-d. That does not make that angel synonymous with G-d any more than Isaiah speaking on behalf of G-d would make him synonymous with G-d. (Chas V'Shalom!)

    You can abuse the text all you want, isolating verses in Genesis 18 and Genesis 32 and erroneously argue that G-d assumed the form of these men and that we are to worship them.

    But Deut 4:9-19, an explicit command from Hashem for Israel not to worship Him in any form, says otherwise!

    And as for Pete Rambo...He can keep "Rambo-ling" on about his make believe jesus angels who jesus never claimed to be in the NT...

    That's right Peter Rambo...Did you know that your jesus never claimed to be "the angel of the Lord" in your NT?

    So why in the world would you assume that your jesus is "the angel of the Lord" when he never even claimed to be such?!

    Your jesus failed to fulfill the Messianic prophesies of the Tanach. I would be glad to demonstrate in more detail for you, Pete...If you would like to carry on the discussion in that direction, I'd be delighted to participate!

    Shalom

    ReplyDelete
  22. Peter, what is more fascinating is how the rabbis appear to agree with the fact that Zechariah 12:10 does not imply that the individual killed must come from the tribe of Judah as you eisegetically insist.

    For people familiar with Messianic prophesy in the Tanach, this is hardly surprising!
    Concerning Zechariah 12:10, Jews and Christians can agree on other passages referring exclusively to the Messiah SON OF DAVID! Here are a few:

    Isaiah 11:1. And a shoot shall spring forth from the **STEM OF JESSE,** and a twig shall sprout from his roots.

    Ezekiel 37:24. And **MY SERVANT DAVID** shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all, and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them.

    Hosea 3:5. Afterwards shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God and **DAVID THEIR KING,** and they shall come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness at the end of days.

    Jeremiah 30:9. And they shall serve the Lord their God and **DAVID THEIR KING,** whom I will set up for them.

    There is one thing all of these verses have in common: They all use a “Davidic qualifier,” meaning that they all exclusively refer to the Davidic dynasty in some fashion. (David/Jesse) This is why Jews and Christians can all understand that these future prophesies refer to one person: Moshiach ben David.

    However, Zechariah 12:10 makes no mention of this "pierced" individual having any exclusive association with the kingdom of David.

    And so, you have no reason to assume that this prophesy applies to the Messiah son of David, especially since the passage says that the House of David pierced this individual...Not the other way around as you want it to say...

    Maybe you should take the Rabbis opinions more seriously, Mr. "orthodox messy antic Jew"

    :-)

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    1. Unknown,

      So let me get this straight: you are giving HaShem a rule that He is not allowed to talk about the Moshiach ben David unless He references the Moshiach's Davidic ancestry?

      Do you have any idea how foolish that sounds?

      Delete
    2. Peter, I am not saying that. However, it is interesting that the vast majority of all the Messianic prophesies that Jews AND christians both agree refer to the SPECIFIC INDIVIDUAL of Moshiach ben David AND NO ONE ELSE all happen to mention the Davidic dynasty in some fashion.

      When you take passages like Zechariah 12:10 and Isaiah 53, it is interesting to note that this is an area of division concerning christians and Jews.

      Why is this?

      Why are we able to agree that passages like Jeremiah 30:9, Ezekiel 37:24-28, Hosea 3:5, and Isaiah 11 all refer to the specific individual of the Messiah, but when it comes to passages like Isaiah 53 and Zechariah 12:10, we come to completely different conclusions?

      It seems rather obvious to me that part of the reason lies in the fact that Zechariah 12:10 and Isaiah 53 neglect to mention the Davidic dynasty concerning the "killed" individuals in their respective passages. This makes these passages more ambiguous concerning who these "killed" individuals are. There are no Davidic or kingly titles given to the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 or the slain individual in Zechariah 12:10...So it's no wonder why Jews do not see these passages as being specific to the Messiah son of David!

      So for the record, I'm not saying that it is a hard fast "rule" that when a passage refers to the Messiah it MUST say "David/Jesse." However, the majority of the passages that do refer to the specific individual of the Messiah son of David do use a "Davidic qualifier." So using exegetical consistency between these passages, any passage that does not give a Davidic qualifier that is said to be "messianic" should be subject to a higher degree of scrutiny.

      And that is precisely what I am doing. And concerning Zechariah 12:10, it makes no sense to assume that the "pierced" individual must be Moshiach ben David, especially since it is the House of David who are looking upon the "one who was pierced." Not the other way around, as you are hopelessly trying to argue!

      Shalom

      Delete
    3. Unknown,

      RE: "Peter, I am not saying that. "

      Then stop saying it! Stop saying that these passages cannot refer to Moshiach ben David!

      Admit! Admit that these passages can refer to Moshiach ben David! Say it!

      Let's hear it. I'm waiting...

      Delete
    4. I never denied that Isaiah 53 has application to the Messiah. However, it does not exclusively apply to the Messiah, as the suffering servant is referred to as collective Israel throughout the entirety of the servant songs and never a "king" or "David." This lends credibility to the fact that the passage does not simply refer to one individual, but rather a collective group, since the servant is referred to as Israel/Jacob/Jeshrun multiple times throughout the entirety of the servant songs.

      Zechariah 12:10 makes no sense to apply to the Messiah son of David simply because it says that the House of David will be looking upon the "pierced person in question." It does not say that this "pierced" individual is of the House of David...Rather, it says the House of David will look on this "pierced individual."

      Likewise, Chazal do not apply this passage to Moshiach ben David for this very reason...

      I suggest you follow their wisdom...

      Shalom

      Delete
    5. Unknown,

      Are you going to admit that Isaiah 53 and Zechariah 12:10 can apply to Moshiach ben David? Yes or no?!

      It's a simple question!

      Delete
    6. I already told you that the Messiah is a part of Israel, and the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 is Israel, Messiah included.

      Are you going to admit this fact is supported by the Tanach and Chazal?

      And no, Zechariah 12:10 gives us no reason to apply it to Moshiach ben David as I've explained to you countless times. The House of David looks upon the "pierced" one...Not the other way around!

      Shalom

      Delete
    7. Unknown,

      Yeah, you've told us you think these passages apply to ANOTHER Messiah, that they CANNOT apply to Moshiach ben David. You have foolishly and arrogantly told HaShem, "I will not accept a Messianic prophecy unless it provides information on MY terms, providing in every instance the lineage of the Messiah."

      Arrogance! Foolishness!

      Delete
    8. Well then Peter...What is your criteria for determining whether or not a passage refers to the specific individual of the Messiah or not?

      Based off of what I have heard from you so far, you have no standard for this other than your confirmation bias of your jesus in the NT...

      I gave you an exegetical heuristic that can be used to determine whether or not a passages refers to the Messiah son of David. So far, you have basically been painting the target around the arrow! You have shot an arrow into a tree, painted concentric circles around it, and have shouted "BULLS EYE!"

      That's not impressive...That's what we call confirmation bias...

      You start with the assumption that your jesus is the Messiah, and then abuse scripture in order to confirm what you think is already true. You ignore the true criteria that the Tanach gives for the true Messiah in order to falsely champion your jesus as the Messiah by abusing the context of the Tanach.

      It's time you give up the charade, Peter. Your jesus failed to fulfill the Messianic prophesies of the Tanach!

      So until you can give me any sort of standard for determining what passages refer to the specific individual of the Messiah son of David in the Tanach, your flippant eisegetical approach to scripture on this matter is downright insulting...

      Shalom

      Delete
  23. "It doesn't matter if an angel speaks on behalf of G-d."

    Where in the Tanach does it state that an angel speak on behalf of God? When a prophet speaks on behalf of God He says so "thus said the Lord..." Where do you see and angel do that? This is a pure invention of the Rabbis....

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    1. Dan Benzvi,

      The I guess the angel Gabriel must be another of your "jesus angels" then...

      He does not introduce himself saying "thus said the Lord" when he speaks to Daniel.

      Daniel 8:16 And I heard the voice of a man in the midst of the Ulai, and he called and said, "Gabriel, enable this one to understand the vision."

      Daniel 8:17 And he came beside the palace where I was standing, and when he came, I became frightened, and I fell upon my face. Then he said to me, "Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end."

      I guess the angel Gabriel must be "god" too according to you?

      Is this another one of your "jesus angels"?

      Or is this the "fourth person of the quadrinity godhead"?

      Apparently, you worship Gabriel...That's pure idolatry through and through...

      Even christians agree!

      So maybe try again, Dan?

      Shalom

      Delete
  24. You know something, you are even qualify to be an anti-missionary...What a novice...You are wasting my time.

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    1. Dan, why don't you drop the charade and admit that your faith has been shaken to its core?

      The reason why you are so frustrated with my arguments is that they are specifically designed to refute the pitiful christian argument that you are using that I have colloquially dubbed "the great angel hunt."

      Basically, it's when christians like you attempt to evade the fact that jesus failed to fulfill the Messianic prophesies in the Tanach by using a strawman argument about anonymous angels in the Tanach being "god".

      The big elephant in the room is that the only reason why you are doing this is to justify your worship of jesus. You erroneously assert that every time an anonymous angel speaks on behalf of G-d, this makes that angel synonymous with Hashem...

      But this is ridiculous, as prophets and angels speak on behalf of G-d many times in the Tanach. Isaiah 7:3-13 has Isaiah speaking on behalf of G-d, sometimes not differentiating between Isaiah's words and G-d's words...Why? Because Isaiah's words are essentially G-d's words. That is the function of a prophet: To speak the word of G-d!

      But does Isaiah speaking on behalf of G-d make Isaiah synonymous with G-d?!

      OF COURSE NOT!

      Likewise, in 8:16-17, the angel Gabriel speaks on behalf of G-d.

      But does Gabriel's speaking on behalf of G-d make Gabriel synonymous with G-d?!

      OF COURSE NOT!

      Likewise, when ANGELS speak on behalf of G-d in Genesis 18 to Abraham, Genesis 32 to Jacob, and all the other passages that you christians abuse concerning angels speaking on behalf of G-d in the Tanach, these angels are not Hashem! They are serving a similar role to a prophet, as they are angelic messengers of G-d. The are not to be worshipped or acknowledged as our Creator.

      Deuteronomy 4:9-19 ends all argumentation on this issue. G-d explicitly commands Israel not to worship Him in ANY FORM. That includes angels, humans, pillars of fire, etc.

      And the other big elephant in the room that none of you christians have addressed is that your jesus never even claimed to be a "pre-incarnate angel" who spoke to people in the Tanach as these aforementioned angels...

      So even if you could prove that these angels are to be worshipped (you cannot,) then you would still have no case for jesus being these angels, even according to the words of jesus!

      So your argument for jesus having anything to do with any of these angels fails on all counts! Moreover, your argument that these angels are synonymous with G-d fails on all counts as well.

      It's a lose lose situation for you "jesus angel hunters." You might as well hunt for bigfoot because you're not even being consistent with your own false NT!

      Face it Dan Benzvi...Your jesus is not the Messiah and he is not Hashem. Your faith has been shaken...Now swallow your pride and drop jesus and follow Hashem!

      Shalom

      Delete
    2. Yehuda YIsrael, so this is where you have been hanging out!

      Delete