Wednesday, April 24, 2013

Quote of the Day



"There is one ekklesia, but it contains within it two distinct communal entities:  a Jewish ekklesia (representing and serving as a bridge to Israel as a whole) and a Gentile ekklesia,"  --Mark Kinzer

(pg. 160, Postmissionary Messianic Judaism by Mark Kinzer)

Rudolph didn't like me using the term "segregation" (which he said was "charged")...  So what's a better term for separating people based on race?  Hmm...  

16 comments:

  1. Super sescesionism? Replacement theology?

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  2. "Rudolph didn't like me using the term "segregation" (which he said was "charged")."

    Peter, in this forum Jewish believers are regularly described as "exclusionists" and "racist" even though Jews themselves come in many races, accept converts from any people, and our congregations host more Gentiles (who come voluntary) than Jews. The last fact makes the "segregation" label seem especially contrived (especially when considering the evils of the black segregation in the South which this word is intended to conjure up).

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  3. A more acceptable term, might instead be:

    bifurcated

    ?

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    1. "bifurcated"

      Bilateral is a similar term and sounds better.

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  4. "separate but equal" was the phrase we used here in America. that worked out well...

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    1. ""separate but equal" was the phrase we used here in America. that worked out well.."

      Except that Messianic Jews do not use that phrase nor separate themselves (non-Jews are the majority in the MJ movement). So, a bogus inflammatory claim (similar to calling Israel an "apartheid regime"). A far more appropriate description: different but equal.

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    2. Gene,

      Re: "different but equal"

      So you think non-Jewish Believers are equal under the law? You're One Law now? How marvelous!

      : )

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    3. "So you think non-Jewish Believers are equal under the law? You're One Law now? How marvelous!"

      Yes, they are absolutely equal under the Law and there's indeed only One Law. Of course, the Cohanim, the Leviim and Yisraelim are also equal under the same One Law. Equality doesn't imply sameness.

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    4. Ok Gene, I'm a little confused here; maybe you can clear a few things up for me.

      You are saying: "The grafted in seed of Abraham (The Gentiles in covenant with God) have a different _______ according to Torah based on this scripture _________."

      Can you please fill in those blanks for me.

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    5. "The grafted in seed of Abraham"

      Andre, being a son of Abraham, physical or spiritual, does not automatically obligate one to the Mosaic Covenant. After all, Abram was renamed Abraham and became the father of many nations (not just Israel) before the Mosaic Covenant was instituted with the Jewish people and thus he became the father of both the circumcised (a euphemism for those under the Mosaic Covenant, i.e. Jews/Israelites) and not (all other nations).

      As far as which laws are applicable to Israel and which are to Gentiles, anywhere you see in the Bible where it says "Say to the children of Israel", that's your clue to whom the commandment applies. Not that there are no invaluable lessons for holy living in the Torah for everyone, even in the commandments that are for Israel only.

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    6. Andre, being a son of Abraham, physical or spiritual, does not automatically obligate one to the Mosaic Covenant. After all, Abram was renamed Abraham and became the father of many nations (not just Israel) before the Mosaic Covenant was instituted with the Jewish people and thus he became the father of both the circumcised (a euphemism for those under the Mosaic Covenant, i.e. Jews/Israelites) and not (all other nations).

      Circumcision is a sign of the Abrahamic Covenant which directly ties it to the Mosaic Covenant, but lets not just consider Abraham, if Gentiles are party to the New Covenant, then obligation to Torah is automatically there.

      As far as which laws are applicable to Israel and which are to Gentiles, anywhere you see in the Bible where it says "Say to the children of Israel", that's your clue to whom the commandment applies.

      Not necessarily, at many times the resident alien was included inside the counting of the Children of Israel. I will admit though there are some differences, there is no 100% One Law, its more like 95% One Law. The ger actually had some privileges similar to the Levites, being able to share in some of the sharings of the Lord in certain occasions, etc.

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    7. I forgot the mention, the biggest difference I have seen in scripture regarding the covenant gentile, is that the ger could not own land, but I have not seen anything bigger than this in the list of differences.

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  5. A Jewish Ekklesia and a Gentile Ekklesia, not found in scripture, so here are the possibilities:

    "separate and not equal", "Two Bodies but one thought", "2000 years of the same thing",

    Bilateral Ecclesiology is actually found in scripture, here:

    Acts 10:28
    “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him."

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    1. "Bilateral Ecclesiology is actually found in scripture, here: Acts 10:28 “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him.""

      One thing that always bugged me about OL advocacy is the tendency for exaggeration to support their claims. I think that this is when rational dialog breaks down and base polemics kick in.

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    2. One thing that always bugged me about OL advocacy is the tendency for exaggeration to support their claims. I think that this is when rational dialog breaks down and base polemics kick in.

      Sorry Gene, it was for a poking, not intended to be taken literally.

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