Thursday, April 30, 2015

How Should a Messianic Respond to the Question: "So What Religion Are You"?




There's several ways this typically plays out...

SCENARIO 1:  COMING OFF AS A CHRISTIAN

Average Joe:  "So what religion are you?"

Messianic:  "I'm a Christian"

Average Joe leaves thinking Messianic is a Christian and follows the way of life taught by Christianity and accepts the beliefs taught by Christianity.

SCENARIO 2:  COMING OFF AS ETHNICALLY JEWISH OR CHRISTIAN MISSIONARY

Average Joe:  "So what religion are you?"

Messianic:  "I practice Messianic Judaism."

Average Joe leaves thinking Messianic is either a Jewish Christian, Messianic Jew, or someone trying to convert Jews to Christianity, etc.  And if Average Joe happens to be a non-Messianic Jew then he's probably going to hate you as a either a traitor to Judaism or a Christian missionary.

QUESTION:

So is there a way to self-identify that communicates something about how you inform your way of life and belief-system that doesn't come off sounding like you're an ethnic Jew, a Christian, or Christian Missionary of Jews?

I like how Neusner terms univeralized Judaism as "meta ethnic Judaism."  But one can't very well go around saying "I'm a meta ethnic Judaism" or "I'm a meta ethnic Jew".

There doesn't appear to be a self-identifying term that captures the Judaic nature of our faith whilst affirming the meta-ethnic nature of our faith...

Does anyone have any suggestions?

66 comments:

  1. If the person has time, sit her down and explain! If not: it's complicated, one day I'll explain to you.

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    1. Matheus,

      So you're basically saying I should stop asking this question. : )

      And maybe I should. I don't know. I wish there was an easy-to-pronounce term that conveys why a Gentile would be affirming Judaism without being willing to undergo "rabbinic conversion" in order to "become a Jew."

      Judaic monotheist... maybe something like that... I don't know.

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    2. What can I say? I love terms. I would like a term. *sigh*

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    3. I'm a....Judaist?...

      I think the problem is that if one isn't a "Hebrew" or ethnic Jew then it's impossible to claim full identification with the People of Israel without coming off like an ethnic Hebrew/Jewish person. I mean, it would be nice to have a term to identify me with the People of Israel...but maybe the compromise is just referencing Yeshua somehow while also differentiating our way of life from Christianity. A Christian won't think you're exactly a Christian if you answer "Messianic Torah Follower". It will affirm to him that you believe in the Messiah Yeshua but it will also prevent him from mistaking you as a proponent of the Christian way of life.

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  2. How about Messianic Torah follower?

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    1. That's not bad! Is this North Carolina Jason??

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  3. It is. A sincere thanks to Dan, Pete Rambo, Zion, Rob Roy, and others for keeping these conversations moving forward. And Peter - you're the only guy I know who sacrifices sleep for book reviews. Thanks for running the point (whatever time it is).

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    1. Jason, I'm honored. Love you, brother. And glad you figured out how to use a computer. : )

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  4. I am a follower of Messiah (Jesus), and I walk as He walked. (Then, proceed to explain...)

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  5. At the foundation of questions such as "how should we refer to ourselves" is pride. It boils down to abandoning the term "Christian" and "Jesus" because you think you are better than others who are not quite as sophisticated as you believe you are.

    The term "Christian" means "I am a follower of Jesus and walk as he walked. The problem is not with the term, but with those who abuse the term. The goal should be to restore the honor of the term "Christian" not to find another term to set yourself apart from your brothers and sisters in Messiah because you know better than them.

    As the Messiah said, "he who is with me is not against me and he who is not against me is with me".

    You are in, or you are out. Let your term to describe yourself fall along the line that Jesus set, not the line you set.

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    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    2. @ Anonymous, May 2, 2015 at 10:09 AM

      Anonymous said: “At the foundation of questions such as ‘how should we refer to ourselves’ is pride. It boils down to abandoning the term ‘Christian’ and ‘Jesus’ because you think you are better than others who are not quite as sophisticated as you believe you are.”

      Strawman. Hasty generalization. There are many reasons why Messianic Judaists use the terms which they use. Your quoted statement does nothing to address this fact.

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      Anonymous said: “The term ‘Christian’ means ‘I am a follower of Jesus and walk as he walked.[’] ”

      Okay, so, in other words, you think that the historical context of how the term “Christian” was used over the past 2,000 years is irrelevant to how the term “Christian” is defined now and, thus, you can just go back to using this term as this term was used in the 1st century with no challenges or problems. This is naive thinking at best, since orthodox Christian doctrine universally evolved, split, and varied over these past 2,000 years, with today’s Christians picking and choosing which historical orthodox Christian doctrine that they favor most.

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      Anonymous said: “The problem is not with the term, but with those who abuse the term. The goal should be to restore the honor of the term ‘Christian’ not to find another term to set yourself apart from your brothers and sisters in Messiah because you know better than them.”

      This ship has already sailed, been shot down, and been sunk. This is because, on the basis of your said advice, many who label themselves “Christian” and define "Christian" differently incessantly argue over who is misusing the term “Christian” without agreement, with many of them never backing down on this issue by the power of personal faith. And it gets them nowhere, except in terms of discrediting Christianity in the world’s eyes. In short, trying to retake the term “Christian” is a trench which no self-professed Christian wins in or escapes from, especially from the world's point of view.

      And, even so, why must we use the term “Christian” when speaking about anyone who believes in Messiah Yehoshua (or Messiah Yeshua, or Christ Jesus)? Is not each believer properly confessing the Lord as the Biblical Gospel requires what truly matters, as opposed to the use of certain labels? Moreover, how is arguing over mandating the use of the term “Christian” not a petty dispute?

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      Anonymous said: “Let your term to describe yourself fall along the line that Jesus set, not the line you set.”

      Nonsense. Pure nonsense. Nowhere in Biblical Scripture did Messiah Yehoshua mandate the term “Christian” as a label for those who believe in and follow him.

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  6. I'm a liberal. (I'm also a conservative.) When one describes a philosophical position, his audience brings bias to the discussion. From the 14th to the mid-19th century liberal meant born into freedom with natural rights and G-d defined moral obligations. Since then it has meant born into a social framework with government defined obligations.

    Liberals should take back the work liberal, too. In the meantime, maybe you would say it's prideful for liberals to ask "How should we refer to ourselves?"?

    The term Christian today does not refer to one who attempts to follow Torah (i.e. as Yeshua walked). In fact, some (most?) who use the term Christian would question one's salvation for trying to follow the Law, citing legalism (even pride) and a subscription to a works-based Gospel.

    While I speak neither, preference for Hebrew over Greek (e.g. Messiah/Christ, Messianic/Christian, Yeshua/Jesus) for me comes from Acts 26:14-15 where Paul notes that Messiah identified himself as Yeshua (note "in the Hebrew language"). The word Jesus, according to Wikipedia is an English derivative of a Latin word transliterated from Greek. Why not go with Acts 26:15? One day we'll all know Him as Yeshua.

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  7. Jason,
    "The term Christian today does not refer to one who attempts to follow Torah"

    That is false. The term has not changed because it comes from the scripture and must be used in that context. What men THINK the term means can vary from person to person. That's why scholars use dictionaries, to normalize terms. If you don't know what the term "Christian" means today, you can use a dictionary.

    The first mention of the term is "the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch" I think you would agree that the disciples "attempted to follow Torah". So, back to my point, the problem is not with the term, but with those who misuse it, much like you are trying to malign it now and claim it does not mean what it means.

    So, if you want to make the argument that those who do NOT follow Torah should not be called Christians, that would make sense, however, to attempt to change the meaning of the designation would not be possible for the term actually means etymologically “slave to Messiah”.

    The term Christian today means one who follows Christ! It has always meant that and always will. The term "Messianic" means one who follows Christ. It always has and always will.

    Messianics think they are better than Christians. Pity the ignorance!

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    1. Your premise is flawed, since there is not one Christianity, there are many.

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    2. There is only one Christianity, but carnal men who lack spiritual maturity create divisions thinking they are more "enlightened" than everyone else. They separate themselves and draw some sheep. Some of these divisions grow as Paul said, but every mans work will be tested the wood hay and stubble burned up.

      Still, there is only one body, but I'm sure you think you know better. :)

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    3. You right a whole shpiel, but you say that I know better? LOL!

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  8. We are weak and unlovely creatures, prone to sin, found dead in trespasses. But, we know Jesus loves us and died so we can live. We are not ashamed to be called Christians because we love him for what he did, we bear his name.

    For centuries men have not been ashamed to be called Christians and many have died. Did they all know the Torah and keep it perfectly? No, and yet Jesus is not ashamed to call them brethren.
    Do you know anything more than those called Christian that the Holy Spirit did not teach? Why should you then glory over another, we both have one Lord. You have to distance yourselves, you who know no persecution and have not died for our faith; you are ashamed to be called a Christian?

    Today, Christians are dying because they dare to call themselves “Christians” and even children are killed, because while they are afraid they will not deny they believe in Jesus.

    Lets see, who died just last month (and we don't know them all) that you are ashamed to called "Christian" with?
    4/27/2015 Nigeria Thirteen Christians are slaughtered in their homes by Muslim raiders.
    4/19/2015 Libya The Islamic State releases a video showing the brutal execution of thirty captured Ethiopian Christians, at least a dozen of whom are beheaded.
    4/17/2015 Pakistan Extremists open fire on a Catholic school.
    4/16/2015 Italy Sicily A dozen Christians on a refugee boat are thrown to their deaths by Muslims.
    4/11/2015 Syria Terrorists shell a Christian neighborhood, killing twenty residents.
    4/10/2015 Pakistan A young Christian is beaten and set on fire.
    4/8/2015 Nigeria A pastor's daughter suffocates when Muslims torch a church over another Muslim's conversion.
    4/6/2015 Bangladesh A pastor and parishioner are attacked and stabbed by a group of thirty-five Muslims.
    4/5/2015 Egypt Ajnad Misr members open fire on a church bus.
    4/2/2015 Kenya A handful of devout Muslims storm a Christian college, separate out the non-Muslims and execute one-hundred and fifty in cold blood.

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    1. Yah, well...Mormons are also Christians. Are you ashamed of them?

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    2. Yah, well...Mormons are also Christians. Are you ashamed of them?

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    3. I'm not ashamed of any Christians, and if there are tares among us, well, it was the Father who commanded they not be removed until the harvest.

      But, of course you know better than God what is right.

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    4. Again, You know best...I did not speak of tares, you did....OH, well....

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  9. So, if I associate myself with Yeshua or Messiah instead of Jesus or Christian (which I usually do the latter at first), then I'm abandoning brothers and sisters who have suffered throughout all time? I don't think that's what you meant. Anyhow, you've found good company here. Peter blogs regularly about these tragedies.

    Anonymous wrote: "If you don't know what the term "Christian" means today, you can use a dictionary."

    The 1st century Greek source text uses the moniker Χριστιανός to designate a disciple of Yeshua. Whatever it was, Χριστιανός had a specific, limited meaning to the 1st century [Greek-]reader.

    Likewise, in spite of their etymology, Christian and Messianic have meanings to the 21st century reader, and I maintain that these meanings are not identical.

    Merriam-Webster defines a Christian as "one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ".
    I'm a Christian according to the dictionary. Notice how deity, resurrection, and salvation aren't mentioned, though. Mormons and Jehova's Witnesses are also Christians according to the dictionary. If a Muslim or a Jew agrees that Jesus Christ was "a great teacher", are they declaring belief in His teaching? I'm not convinced that the dictionary has captured the nuance of how a general audience would interpret the meaning of this word. I think you'll agree the term is broad, which is why people typically self-identify with something else (e.g. Catholic, Southern Baptist, Messianic Torah seeker, etc.).

    Merriam-Webster defines messianic as "of or relating to the expected king and deliverer of the Jews".
    Well this isn't identical to the definition of Christian but it's also not how I'm using the term.

    I'm reminded of a story that Daniel Lapin told about a dinner he had with a New York judge(?) who was concerned that if Pat Robertson became president that we'd all end up subject to the Pope.
    Rabbi Lapin laughed and responded "Does the Protestant Reformation mean anything to you?"

    The reality is that when you use a word, it's best to know the meaning brings to the other person.

    Merriam-Webster defines liberal as "believing that government should be active in supporting social and political change : relating to or supporting political liberalism"
    OY.

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  10. Why is it that the "Christians" are being killed for the name of Jesus? Why have I not heard of any "(insert term that Peter is searching for)" beheaded lately?

    Maybe you are better than them, so need to set yourself apart, too ashamed to call yourself their brother because they are not as holy as you; you understand and keep the Law better than they?

    I'm sure you’re on your knees praying for forgiveness for breaking the law just as much as these little ones who call themselves Christians are, smiting your breast and praying "forgive me Father, I am a sinner". Or, maybe not. Are you praying "Thank you Father that I'm not as one of these that don't keep the Torah".

    Back to my main point, if you are too ashamed to call yourself a Christian you are full of PRIDE. You believe yourself to be better.

    But, go ahead and separate yourself from "Christians" if you want to, you will become the proverbial "smoke in Gods nose"

    So, to your point...knowing the meaning of a term such as "Christian" brings to the "other person", you should correct their wrong interpretation, not support and reinforce it by calling yourself something "new" to identify yourself with your "I know better than those lousy Christians do so don’t number me with them" philosophy.

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    1. Anonymous,

      Why did the Protestants not continue to call themselves Catholics? Pride?

      Why are there Baptists and Presbyterians, Methodist and Lutherans? Pride?

      I'm sorry, but your argument fails miserably. I understand the point to stand with and pray for those dying a martyr's death, and I do, but I also openly and vociferously call for a completion of the Reformation that will repair 1800 years of false doctrines that our fathers have handed us.

      Changing terms is a necessary step in the process to help define lines and differences that need to be addressed. Pride is not the reason, doctrine is. I no longer define myself by a term that the hearer assumes means something I do NOT mean.

      Take 'gay' for example. What does it mean 120 years ago? What does it mean today? Do we recapture the correct use of the word by calling ourselves and others 'gay' just because we are happy, or are we better suited scrapping the term and using a more appropriate term in today's culture?

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    2. "Why are there Baptists and Presbyterians, Methodist and Lutherans? Pride?"

      Of course....don't you think they have the same sin as you? They also wanted to "set the doctrine right", your just the next in a long line. Your just the next to "create" new designations that show how right you are and those "others" are wrong.

      You are not new and you are not special. If I had a penny for every man who thought he got the doctrine straight in the last 2 thousand years and seperated himself so, I'd be rich.


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  11. "Notice how deity, resurrection, and salvation aren't mentioned," what, Jesus did not teach on these thing?

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  12. Anonymous,

    Nothing we say will convince you that our motives are pure, that we are driven by a desire to wrest ourselves from the anti-Biblical and anti-Semitic religious system known as Christianity. We take issue with the religious order, not the victims of that religious order. Christians today are simultaneously victims of anti-Biblical doctrines (as evidenced by the moral decay within Christian culture) and victims of external threats such as ISIS.

    The goal of the Messianic movement includes empowering those who have been victims of Christian culture/doctrine as well as external threats such as ISIS. We believe that the Messianic movement will eventually empower the People of G-d to fight back against EVERY type of threat (including such groups as ISIS).

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  13. Peter, like I said this is not new and it is not special. Christianity never lacks men who think their motives are pure as the split and divide those who are called out of the world to be separated unto God. We, the Church, are continually attacked through the ages from outside, for example by other religious systems such as Judaism, and Islam, or by governmental systems such as the Roman Empire, etc.

    We are attacked from within by false teachers and false prophets.
    “I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you; and they won’t spare the flock. Even from among your own number, men will arise and teach perversions of the truth, in order to drag away the talmidim after themselves.”

    We learned to take sides and compete. Gangs, cliques, cults, denominations, and religions form, not because they are of God, but because we are carnal, not spiritual.

    I’m familiar with the method of operation Satan uses. It begins with some offense that festers. He works on those with some grievance. He leads them to fight against the perceived injustice and they work on God to fix the problem while they study and learn the basics about the doctrines. When they don’t get the results they wantj from God, they determine to fix the problem themselves.

    Then Satan goes to work and tells them how special and different they are from those “others” and they begin to believe the lie that, like leavening causes the mind to “rise” in pride. They begin to create their own reality where they are Gods servant and everyone else is evil. They begin to believe only they have the truth, only they have “pure hearts” but usually its some small details they have completely blown out of proportion and Satan takes advantage. Once full of pride, they become so blind they think everything they want is what God wants, everything they believe is the truth, the make their own reality. Then, they seek others with similar grievances to join them (it’s a movement now). They work for a time repeating the offense and then set themselves up as the solution. A charismatic person will eventually be found that Satan can use to hold the “banner” so to speak, someone they can rally behind, someone they can believe “hears from God” and will lead them to some ideal. That leader begins to "mind control" his group, first very subtle, conditioning them to obey. They convince enough people that "only they are preaching the true gospel" and take the next step towards needing funds to complete the mission. Once they get a taste of the money or power, they start building things and gathering property to protect their wealth.

    It seems you are well on your way, like I said, you are not new……you are just next. Have you decided what will you call your cult?

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    1. Anonymous,

      If the Christian church is so perfect then why did this happen in Nazi Germany when 90% of Germans identified as Protestant:

      http://orthodoxmessianic.blogspot.com/2013/06/sing-little-louder.html

      How about the Rwandan genocide perpetrated by the Christian Hutus against their neighbors the Tutsis? I met a Rwandan who lived through it and told of the Christian worshipping one minute and then going out and resuming the mass murder---1,000,000 TUTSIS MURDERED BY CHRISTIANS.

      Do you want me to continue with the history lesson?

      Are you still confident that Christianity doesn't need the radical transformation we're proposing? You want things to just continue as they are?

      Shall we talk about the Dutch Church in South Africa?

      Shall we talk about the Christian atrocities against the Jewish People (e.g. the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Expulsions)?


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    2. You are just pointing to the tares among the wheat that Jesus said "the enemy sowed" and you are calling that "the Church" that Jesus said he would build and the gates of hell would not prevail against.

      If you can twist the story to make what the enemy sowed "the Church" then you can claim they are "Christians" and this will be important to YOUR platform and you can set out on your mission. I don't need a history lesson on what Satan has done in the name of Jesus.

      It's shameful however for you to point to the works of the devil and say it was done by Jesus' assembly of called out ones.

      "“The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared."

      Is your platform is to remove the tares? I don't see how that would support what you state your intentions, mainly because you would have to recognize the difference between what God is doing in his "Church" and what Satan is doing.

      Can you make that leap of understanding?

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    3. Only one who is in denial would think that the last two thousand years of church history has been one long parade of infallible truth and beneficence toward all mankind.

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    4. Hitler was a disciple of Jesus Christ?

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    5. Millions of Christian Germans followed Hitler. Keep telling yourself that there were no Christians in Germany. That there was no history of anti-Semitism in Germany. That Martin Luther didn't write the tractate "On the Jews and Their Lies" which gave a seven step plan for the elimination of Jews which Hitler implemented on Krystallnacht.

      I'm sick of the evil of willful blindness!!!

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    6. Here are the "Church Fathers":

      Rejection of the Jews, Election of the Gentiles

      Why was the temple made desolate? Was it on account of the ancient fabrication of the calf? Or was it on account of the idolatry of the people? Was it for the blood of the prophets? Was it for the adultery and fornication of Israel? By no means, for in all these transgressions they always found pardon open to them. But it was because they killed the Son of their Benefactor, for He is coeternal with the Father. [Hipp. C. Jud. 7]
      Hippolytus c. 220 CE

      Deicide
      If someone had killed your son. could you stand the sight of him or the sound of his greeting? Wouldn't you try to get away from him as if he were an evil demon; as if he were the Devil himself? The Jews killed the Son of your Master......... Will you so dishonor Him as to respect and cultivate His Murderers, the men who crucified Him? [Chry. Or. C. Jud. I, 7]
      John Chrysostum C. 390 CE
      Sibling Rivalry
      Today the glory has passed front the people of Israel and they stand among the nations ashamed, as Cain was, at their unnatural deed. [Eph. Rhy. C. Jud. 8)

      Jewish Dispora and Suffering
      You can hear the wailing and lamentations of each of the prophets, wailing and lamenting characteristically over the calamities which will overtake the Jewish people because of their impiety to Him who had been foretold. How their Kingdom . . . would be utterly destroyed after their sin against Christ; how their Father's law would he abrogated, they themselves deprived of their ancient worship, robbed of the independence of their forefathers, and made slaves of their enemies instead of free men. How their royal metropolis would be burned with fire, their. .. holy altar undergo flames and extreme desolation, their city be inhabited no longer by its old possessors, but by races of other stock, while they would be dispersed among the Gentiles throughout the whole world with never a hope of any cessation of evil or breathing space from trouble (Euseb;D. E. I, 1]
      Eusebius c. 340 CE

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    7. Sign of a Curse
      For the circumcision according to the flesh; which is from Abraham, was given for a sign, that you may be separated from other nations and from us, and that you alone may suffer that which you now justly suffer, and that your land may be desolate and your cities burned with fire, and that strangers may eat your fruit in your; presence and not one of you may go up to Jerusalem.'
      Justin Martyr C. 160 CE
      Rejection and Substitution
      It is because you killed Christ. It is became you stretched out your hand against the Lord. It is because you shed the precious blood, that there is now no restoration, no mercy anymore and no defense. Long ago your audacity was directed against servants, against Moses, Isaiah and Jeremiah. If there was wickedness then, as yet the wont of all crimes had not been dared. But now you have eclipsed everything in the past and through your madness against Christ, you have committed the ultimate transgression. This is why you are being punished worse now than in the past. . . . If this were not the case God would not have turned his back on you so completely. . . But if it appears that He has utterly abandoned you; it is evident from this anger and abandonment that He is showing even to the most shameless that the One who was murdered was not a common lawbreaker, but was the very Lawgiver Himself, and the Cause, present among us, of innumerable blessings. Thus you who sinned against Him are in a state of dishonor and disgrace, while we who worship Him, though we once were less honored than any of you [i.e., as gentile pagans), are now established through the grace of God in a more respected position than any of you and in greater honor. [Chry. Or. C. Jud. VI, 2-3)
      John Chrysostum c. 390 CE
      Debauched, Animal Jews
      I know that many people hold a high regard for the Jews and consider their way of life worthy of respect at the present time. This is why I am hurrying to pull up this fatal notion by the roots. . . . A place where a whore stands on display is a whorehouse. What is more, the synagogue is not only a whorehouse and a theater; it is also a den of thieves and a haunt of wild ....... not the cave of a wild animal merely, but of an unclean wild animals . . . . The Jews have no conception of [spiritual] things at all, but living for the lower nature, all agog for the here and now, no better disposed than pigs or goats, they live by the rule of debauchery and inordinate gluttony. Only one thing they understand: to gorge themselves and to get drunk. [Chry. Or. C. Jud. I, 3,4; PG 48, 847, 848]
      John Chrysostum C. 390 CE
      Fit for Slaughter
      When animals have been fattened by having all they want to eat, they get stubborn and hard to manage. . . . Another prophet intimates the same thing when he says "Israel ran about madly like a heifer stung by a gadfly" and still another calls her "an untrained calf." When animals are unfit for work, they ate marked for slaughter, and this is the very thing which the Jews have experienced. By making themselves unfit for work, they have become ready for slaughter. This is why Christ said, "Ask for my enemies, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me." [Chry. Or C. Jud. 1.2; PG 48, 846)
      John Chrysostum C. 390 CE

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    8. Anonymous,

      Now you see the trend? There's a 2000 year pattern of anti-Semitism and just plain hatred toward ethnic outsiders in the Christian Church! And it starts with those "fierce wolves" that came in after Paul and said the Torah was abolished (despite Yeshua's own words) and turned the Messianic Assembly into something evil.

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    9. Anonymous wrote: "Hitler was a disciple of Jesus Christ?"

      Are you surprised to learn that Hitler professed to be a Christian? Limiting the definition of the term to the dictionary actually doesn't solve the problem.

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    10. For the record, it looks like Anonymous is now approving "Christian" and "disciple of Jesus Christ". What's next, Messianic Torah Seeker?

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    11. Jason, I see your point about limiting the definition to the dictionary if you mean "professed" could include "lie".

      I do not have a problem with "Messianic Torah Seeker" if it is synonomous with "Christian". My problem is with maligning "Christian" and taking another term because you think you are better than other believers in Jesus.

      Pride: a feeling that you respect yourself and deserve to be respected by other people: a feeling that you are more important or better than other people

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    12. "Are you surprised to learn that Hitler professed to be a Christian?"

      Not at all, Jesus said "many shall come in my name and decieve many" and "false prophets and false messiahs"

      What I am suprised at is how you guys are the ones decieved. You think because he "professed" to be a Christian, then he was.

      Of course, I'm pretty sure you don't actually believe that, but it does not fit your platfrom to create a new cult so you act like you believe Hitler was a Christian. Pity that

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    13. Does this make sense?

      Christian: One who falsely professes to follow Jesus Christ

      I think that is what you are getting at?

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    14. This is why audience matters. To one audience, Pat Roberson, the Pope, and Hitler are similar. To another, the term Messianic implies adherence to extra-biblical Jewish customs. One would hope that we're all seeking to believe, live out, and identify with the religion of the Χριστιανός.

      In all cases you should be aware that assumptions are being made about the term you choose. No one here has mentioned starting a new religion or being better than anyone. Accusing somebody who is discussing a name for a school of biblical interpretation as being prideful, selfish, a cult-leader, etc. is at best completely inappropriate and at worst inhibiting the Gospel from moving forward.

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    15. So, you believe you should have a different term so people will not assume your are like "Roberson, the Pope, and Hitler"? I suppose you have a much larger list of those "others" you are not like.

      This is called "differentiation" in marketing. It means "our product is better than the competition. It's not about creating unity of the body, it's about creating division, but it is only reasonable to expect you to deny it.

      Jesus prayed "make them one as we are one" and I do not believe it is inappropriate from calling you on the fact you want to make a new designation so you can yet again divide the church, this time on your own lines, what you WILL, not what God Wills.

      Again, it's been done to death! You are just next in a long line of dividers who believe they are special, that believe only they know what God wants, that only they have the right doctrine. Your platform is divisive.

      Sociologist, anthropologists, and phycologists are all familiar with the type activity you are engaging in, the forming of cults. There are specific steps that have been identified and you guys are well on your way. It may take a bit of time, but eventually I expect (if you do not repent) yet another division of the Church. And, you will be so adamant about getting what you want, you will miss what God wants.

      So, those who discussed a name....let's see "Branch Davidians" "The Manson Family", "Heavens Gate" "Peoples Temple" "Scientology", "Unification Church" "Children of God" "Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" "Twelve Tribes".

      I could go on and on and on! You are not new or special, you are just next! Why not repent and find ways to mend, gather, repair the breach instead?

      We are Christians and we are being made into one body. That truth will not stop the gospel from moving forward.

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    16. "you want to make a new designation"

      Your ignorance is showing...Messianic Judaism was there way before the "Christianity" you so eager to promote....Read the Bible...

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    17. Dan, so educated me. I know "they were first called Christians in Antioch" and I know the disciples of Jesus were called "the way". Where was the term first used "Messianic Judaism" prior to that?

      The evidence I could find makes "Messianic Judaism" as starting in the 1960's. Are there some books or ancient writings that use this term? Don't Mesianic Jews follow the teachings of Jesus?

      Everyone who follows the teachings of Jesus is a "Christian", Jewish or Not! :)


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    18. Lesson #1"
      Everyone who follows the teachings of Jesus is a "Christian", Jewish or Not! :)
      "

      He kept the 7th day Shabbat, how many Christians of you brand do?

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    19. Anonymous: "So, you believe you should have a different term so people will not assume your are like "Roberson, the Pope, and Hitler"?"

      No. See the story I cited above.

      Anonymous: "you want to make a new designation so you can yet again divide the church"

      Would a true Messiah-follower would judge another servant's motives?

      Romans 14:4
      "Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand."

      Matthew 7:1-2
      "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you."

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    20. Dan, if you want to make the point that anyone who misunderstands a doctrine or breaks the law is not a Christian, then no one is a true Christian.

      Jason, I suppose if you were sitting next to a child molester peering at a child, you would not judge him? If a man were about to murder your wife, you would be such a saint.

      I would not hesitate to call him on it! The torah demands it. You are misusing the scripture. And, apparently you do not know the Torah.

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    21. So, you stand by your comment that you know my motives?

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    22. Do I know your motives? Thats not the point, you are just trying to divert the conversation. Don't bother, I'm done for now.

      Sitting back with popcorn...waiting for the name of the new cult

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  14. Peter, again it’s been done….. and you are now just another in a long line of "accusers of the brethren". You’re not new or special....You’re just next. Satan has always discredited Jesus, the real work of God, and his Holy Temple indwelt with his Holy Spirit by accusing his saints falsely.

    You give yourself away by your words. You don't point to the believer, born again and baptized in the Holy Spirit and all the trillions of "righteous acts of the Saints”. Instead, you point to what some wicked men did in history and attribute their evil works to God, Jesus, The Church and the Holy Spirit. This is just another trick Satan uses to discredit Jesus and blaspheme God.

    Let me see, one platform of your new cult is "Gods Church does evil". Is that right? What do you think Jesus meant by "you shall know them by their fruits".

    Do you think you can make that leap of understanding. Put 2 and 2 together and it adds up to: Those men had bad fruit, we know they were not children of God.

    Jesus said: "A good tree CANNOT bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit."

    .....but you are believing and teaching otherwise. Careful how you blaspheme by saying God's Holy Church bears bad fruit. I will not bother to warn you further, you are well into your delusion of grandure and creation of your own false reality relying heavily on Satans own delusion.

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    1. Millions of Christian Germans followed Hitler. Keep telling yourself that there were no Christians in Germany. That there was no history of anti-Semitism in Germany. That Martin Luther didn't write the tractate "On the Jews and Their Lies" which gave a seven step plan for the elimination of Jews which Hitler implemented on Krystallnacht.

      I'm sick of the evil of willful blindness!!!

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    2. Here are the "Church Fathers":

      Rejection of the Jews, Election of the Gentiles

      Why was the temple made desolate? Was it on account of the ancient fabrication of the calf? Or was it on account of the idolatry of the people? Was it for the blood of the prophets? Was it for the adultery and fornication of Israel? By no means, for in all these transgressions they always found pardon open to them. But it was because they killed the Son of their Benefactor, for He is coeternal with the Father. [Hipp. C. Jud. 7]
      Hippolytus c. 220 CE

      Deicide
      If someone had killed your son. could you stand the sight of him or the sound of his greeting? Wouldn't you try to get away from him as if he were an evil demon; as if he were the Devil himself? The Jews killed the Son of your Master......... Will you so dishonor Him as to respect and cultivate His Murderers, the men who crucified Him? [Chry. Or. C. Jud. I, 7]
      John Chrysostum C. 390 CE
      Sibling Rivalry
      Today the glory has passed front the people of Israel and they stand among the nations ashamed, as Cain was, at their unnatural deed. [Eph. Rhy. C. Jud. 8)

      Jewish Dispora and Suffering
      You can hear the wailing and lamentations of each of the prophets, wailing and lamenting characteristically over the calamities which will overtake the Jewish people because of their impiety to Him who had been foretold. How their Kingdom . . . would be utterly destroyed after their sin against Christ; how their Father's law would he abrogated, they themselves deprived of their ancient worship, robbed of the independence of their forefathers, and made slaves of their enemies instead of free men. How their royal metropolis would be burned with fire, their. .. holy altar undergo flames and extreme desolation, their city be inhabited no longer by its old possessors, but by races of other stock, while they would be dispersed among the Gentiles throughout the whole world with never a hope of any cessation of evil or breathing space from trouble (Euseb;D. E. I, 1]
      Eusebius c. 340 CE

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    3. Sign of a Curse
      For the circumcision according to the flesh; which is from Abraham, was given for a sign, that you may be separated from other nations and from us, and that you alone may suffer that which you now justly suffer, and that your land may be desolate and your cities burned with fire, and that strangers may eat your fruit in your; presence and not one of you may go up to Jerusalem.'
      Justin Martyr C. 160 CE
      Rejection and Substitution
      It is because you killed Christ. It is became you stretched out your hand against the Lord. It is because you shed the precious blood, that there is now no restoration, no mercy anymore and no defense. Long ago your audacity was directed against servants, against Moses, Isaiah and Jeremiah. If there was wickedness then, as yet the wont of all crimes had not been dared. But now you have eclipsed everything in the past and through your madness against Christ, you have committed the ultimate transgression. This is why you are being punished worse now than in the past. . . . If this were not the case God would not have turned his back on you so completely. . . But if it appears that He has utterly abandoned you; it is evident from this anger and abandonment that He is showing even to the most shameless that the One who was murdered was not a common lawbreaker, but was the very Lawgiver Himself, and the Cause, present among us, of innumerable blessings. Thus you who sinned against Him are in a state of dishonor and disgrace, while we who worship Him, though we once were less honored than any of you [i.e., as gentile pagans), are now established through the grace of God in a more respected position than any of you and in greater honor. [Chry. Or. C. Jud. VI, 2-3)
      John Chrysostum c. 390 CE
      Debauched, Animal Jews
      I know that many people hold a high regard for the Jews and consider their way of life worthy of respect at the present time. This is why I am hurrying to pull up this fatal notion by the roots. . . . A place where a whore stands on display is a whorehouse. What is more, the synagogue is not only a whorehouse and a theater; it is also a den of thieves and a haunt of wild ....... not the cave of a wild animal merely, but of an unclean wild animals . . . . The Jews have no conception of [spiritual] things at all, but living for the lower nature, all agog for the here and now, no better disposed than pigs or goats, they live by the rule of debauchery and inordinate gluttony. Only one thing they understand: to gorge themselves and to get drunk. [Chry. Or. C. Jud. I, 3,4; PG 48, 847, 848]
      John Chrysostum C. 390 CE
      Fit for Slaughter
      When animals have been fattened by having all they want to eat, they get stubborn and hard to manage. . . . Another prophet intimates the same thing when he says "Israel ran about madly like a heifer stung by a gadfly" and still another calls her "an untrained calf." When animals are unfit for work, they ate marked for slaughter, and this is the very thing which the Jews have experienced. By making themselves unfit for work, they have become ready for slaughter. This is why Christ said, "Ask for my enemies, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me." [Chry. Or C. Jud. 1.2; PG 48, 846)
      John Chrysostum C. 390 CE

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    4. Anonymous,

      Now you see the trend? There's a 2000 year pattern of anti-Semitism and just plain hatred toward ethnic outsiders in the Christian Church! And it starts with those "fierce wolves" that came in after Paul and said the Torah was abolished (despite Yeshua's own words) and turned the Messianic Assembly into something evil.

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    5. Peter, the fact that you believe Hitler to be a disciple of Jesus Christ shows your delusion and creation of your own false reality.

      That idea is important to your platform so you have something to fight against. In this case you want to fight Gods Church and you can get some market share by differenciating yourself so. You pick some old quotes that sound sensational, you point to evils done by carnal men and say they are disciples of Jesus Christ, you over emphasis on certain things while completely ignoring others.

      You want to make it "anti-semetic" to believe what Jesus said about his own people. Jews started the Church and the Church is built on the fact that the Christ and Son of the Living God is Jewish. The Church always accepts and loves Jews into the fold, so your idea of "ethnic outsiders" is just propaganda.

      Where are your stories and quotes from the Jews that have entered the church and were loved. Where are your stories of Christians that loved and protected the Jews, even at peril of their own lives? Where are your stories of the Christian men and women who loved a Jew enough to marry and have children with them? The problem is that you can not see the forest for the couple of trees you are fixated on.

      You're ideas are warped lacking all truth and balance. Christians are dying everyday for Jesus Christ, but you have no real concern for them. Are you making yourself the enemy of Jesus and his Church? I guess that is your marketing "differentiation" once established you can enter the market and try to capture market share.

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    6. Re: "I could go on and on and on!"

      I kind of noticed that. : )

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    7. "I kind of noticed that. : )"

      Point taken :)

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  15. "Jews started the Church and the Church is built on the fact that the Christ and Son of the Living God is Jewish."

    Glad you noticed...LOL! They were called people of the way, not "Christians..."

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    1. ""Jews started the Church and the Church"

      Yeah, not "Messianic Judaism.

      If you ask one million Christian, one million Mulims, one million Jews "what do you call a person who believes that Jesus is the Messiah and follow his teachings?

      They would all say "Christians". But, in your alternate reality you can't understand.

      Does Judaism think people who believe in Jesus Christ are not Christians? Give me a break.

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    2. "Yeah, not "Messianic Judaism."

      And your point is? I said "People of the way". But it does not fit your agenda, right?

      "If you ask one million Christian, one million Mulims, one million Jews "what do you call a person who believes that Jesus is the Messiah and follow his teachings?"

      Lesson #: Do you know how to say "Christian" in Arabic? Hebrew? I speak both languages, but I don't understand...LOL!

      "Does Judaism think people who believe in Jesus Christ are not Christians? Give me a break."

      And here I thought that people don't count, only the Bible...You have short memory.....

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  16. "Dan, if you want to make the point that anyone who misunderstands a doctrine or breaks the law is not a Christian, then no one is a true Christian."

    Amazing How all your kind Christians misunderstand the fourth commandment....LOL!

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  17. ThoughtCrimeinProgressMay 5, 2015 at 7:03 AM

    Peter said: “I'm a....Judaist?...”

    That’s the term which I use. As an independent believer in Messiah Yehoshua (or Messiah Yeshua, or Christ Jesus), I just say “Messianic Judaist” as a general reference to adherents of Messianic Judaism (who I do not confuse with Hebrew Roots Christians, whom I call “Christians”). By extension, I just say “citizens of Yisra’el (Israel)” to describe anyone who is grafted into Yisra’el. And I just leave it at that.

    In short, I let “Jews” be just genealogical Jews, I let Judaists be just Judaists, and so on. Otherwise, any attempts to fuse such concepts only leads to unnecessary confusion and bad doctrinal assertions.

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    1. Messianic Judaist is not bad either. It shows that we're (1) pro Messiah Yeshua; (2) pro the original Judaic nature of the faith (as opposed to post-Biblical, Christian Anti-Judaism); (3) while differentiating us non-Jews from Messianic Jews.

      It's not bad.

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