Friday, April 3, 2015

Super Sports Fans and Nationalism: A Question for James Pyles and Dan Benzvi




I'll never forget listening to my dad as he watched sports games on tv.  If the team he was rooting for made an unforgivable mistake, you would hear, "Aw, MAN!!!"  But if they did something right, you would hear, "ALL RIGHT!!!"


But the team he was rooting for would depend on that particular game.  In one game, he might be cheering for Virginia Tech to win.  In another game, he would be cheering for UVA (University of Virginia) to beat Virginia Tech.

It was as though each game he would select one team to be his "sports family"--and that of course meant that the other team were the "enemy outsiders."  If the "enemy outsiders" did something to hurt the "sports family", like a foul or whatever, then he would feel something like anger.  And if the "sports family" fought their way back to victory then he would experience something like joy.

In nationalism, like with sports, one imagines his family.  Example 1:  I'm a Virginian.  I don't really know anyone from California.  Yet I feel that Californians belong to my American family.   I imagine them as family.  Why do Americans imagine other Americans as kin?  It's not as though we're related by blood.  Why do we do it?

For one thing, we imagine that we have the same capital--the seat of power for America--which is Washington D.C.  It's impossible for an American to go to Washington and not feel a swell of nationalist pride when we see the various monuments.

For an American, Washington D.C. is the hub that holds our entire country together (unless you're a die-hard Southerner in which case you might still feel some measure of loyalty to Richmond, Virginia, the former capital of the Southern Nation--the Confederacy).



Quick story:

I'll never forget on 9/11 seeing ominous smoke rising from the Pentagon.  I was particularly concerned because I knew my brother lived in that area.


And I'll never forget driving past the Pentagon a year or so later and how I felt when I saw the rebuilding...


When I thought of those crews working tirelessly to rebuild what the terrorists had destroyed--and when I thought of this important building to our capital, what it's reconstruction signified for all of America...well, I'll tell you I felt a surge of pride for my American family.

Here's my question for James Pyles and Dan Benzvi:

Should Gentiles be angry when Jerusalem is attacked?  When they see the satanic Mosque sitting where the Temple should stand?

Should Gentiles rejoice when Jerusalem rejoices?

In other words, should we not see Jerusalem as the capital of our family?

Or should we Gentiles view ourselves as the "enemy outsiders"?

32 comments:

  1. Replies
    1. For the less tech-savvy who may not realize that James posted a link, here is his response:

      @Peter:

      “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah…”

      –Jeremiah 31:31 (NASB) (emph. mine)

      All of God’s New Covenant promises (and there are a lot of them) are made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. In modern times, that translates into the Jewish people and national Israel. Gentiles are able to come alongside the Jewish people and benefit from the blessings of many of those promises (the resurrection, the receiving of the Holy Spirit in fullness), however there is only one head nation in the world whose King is Messiah:

      For thus says the LORD, “Sing aloud with gladness for Jacob, And shout among the chief of the nations; Proclaim, give praise and say, ‘O LORD, save Your people, The remnant of Israel.'”

      –Jeremiah 31:7

      Also consider:

      The Lord will make you the head and not the tail, and you only will be above, and you will not be underneath, if you listen to the commandments of the Lord your God, which I charge you today, to observe them carefully…

      –Deuteronomy 28:13

      This is also why I think one of the primary roles of the “Messianic Gentile” is to support and encourage increased Jewish Torah observance, since God links such observance among Jews to their ascendancy as a nation.

      I have no trouble at all being a subject of King Messiah residing in a vassal nation.

      In the Star Trek episode “Space Seed,” Kahn (Ricardo Montalban) famously quotes from Milton’s “Paradise Lost:”

      It is better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven.

      I believe the exact opposite. It is better to serve the King and to honor the head of the nations than to attempt to usurp those who are rightfully Israel.

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    2. Here was my response:

      “Many nations will be joined with the LORD in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you,” Zechariah 2:11

      In that day, James, the nations will no longer be separate peoples but will think of themselves as a single People–i.e. a single family. And what is G-d’s family if not Israel?

      This is where Bilateral Ecclesiology (or “Dual Family” Theology) utterly fails. It says to Gentiles, “You are excluded from the family.”

      Scripture says otherwise.

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    3. Good Star Trek reference by the way. I own that episode. : )

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    4. Peter,

      Along the same line, Yeshua's words are ringing in my head, "I go to prepare a place for you..."

      The only 'place' I can think of that He would go prepare is the New Jerusalem. Is there another? I can't think of one...

      So, if the New Jerusalem is the place He is preparing, was he speaking only to the disciples, only to Jews or to all who love and follow Him. Obviously, for me, it is the latter, but as you point out in the previous comment, bilateralists have to solve these types of 'inclusive' verses rather than figure ways to hold those who love Judah and Yeshua at bay.

      Even James said, "At my family Seder tomorrow night, when we all declare “Next Year in Jerusalem,” may that “next year” come soon. May it come soon for all Jews living in the diaspora and for all those who love them." (James, when you say, 'those who love them,' do you mean only those who are married to a Jew or that 'next year in Jerusalem' actually only means to visit Jerusalem at this time of year, or... it means different things for different people depending not on their faith and love of the God of Israel, but on their ethnicity? Please account for Romans 9:6-8)

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    5. " Obviously, for me, it is the latter, "

      Wrong, for you it is the Ephramites.....Trying to pool the wool over our eyes?

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    6. As usual, James did not read the rest of the Duet 28 passage.

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  2. Peter,

    It is amazing to see you slip from the stupid to the absurd...

    "
    “Many nations will be joined with the LORD in that day and will become my people"

    Where does it say that all these many nations will change their ethnicity?

    Hello!!! Armstrong already tried it and look what happened to him and his church...So now you guys could not get in through your imagined door so you are trying to get in through the window.... Nice try, but no cigar....

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    Replies
    1. Isa 56:1 Thus says the LORD: "Keep justice, and do righteousness, for soon my salvation will come, and my deliverance be revealed.
      Isa 56:2 Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who holds it fast, who keeps the Sabbath, not profaning it, and keeps his hand from doing any evil."
      Isa 56:3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely separate me from his people"; and let not the eunuch say, "Behold, I am a dry tree."
      Isa 56:4 For thus says the LORD: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose the things that please me and hold fast my covenant,
      Isa 56:5 I will give in my house and within my walls a monument and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off.
      Isa 56:6 "And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant--
      Isa 56:7 these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples."
      Isa 56:8 The Lord GOD, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, declares, "I will gather yet others to him besides those already gathered."

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  3. Peter,
    Great discussions as usual. It appears Dan only want to attack. I see no love in his content. If he disagree with you so be it; nevertheless, he should show you why he believes your in error rather than just attacking with unneeded verbiage. Then again, when one is thinking with a western mindset this can occur. Why can't this be like dialogue of the sages? Each individual showing justification as to why one point is valid.

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  4. Gifted,

    Peter is talking with a forked tongue, that way to novices like you he appears correct. Why should I love someone who wants to take what is mine?

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    Replies
    1. What exactly do you believe I am taking by pledging my allegiance to Israel?

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  5. Gifted,

    Peter is talking with a forked tongue, that way to novices like you he appears correct. Why should I love someone who wants to take what is mine?

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  6. The conversation continued (clickable link) Peter but you didn't post my next response.

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    Replies
    1. James, I would love nothing more than for you to understand the contradiction in what you wrote. You intimated (and correct me if I'm misunderstanding you) that Gentiles are included in the family and yet excluded from the nation. But nation is family! : )

      Your nation is the what you would fight for if it is attacked. Would you fight for Jerusalem/Israel? Your nation is where your allegiance lies. Would you as an American go to war with Jerusalem/Israel?


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    2. There are more than a billion Catholics in the world, are they all live in the Vatican?

      Wishful thinking does not a theology make.....

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    3. Dan,

      Do you carry a citizenship card for the Messianic Kingdom Realm of Israel? No, you don't. Rather, you HOPE and have FAITH in this citizenship. This is not something you can prove.

      Nevertheless, it is absolutely real.

      By the way, I didn't understand what point you trying to make with the "billion Catholics" comment.

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    4. No, but I carry an Israeli Passport, you know, Israel where Jerusalem you are so longing to become a citizen is... Do you carry one?

      Yes, it is absolutely real, I am a citizen, you are not. "Messianic Kingdom realm of Israel" is looking forward to Jerusalem that comes from heaven, but you and your 2 house friends insist that the earthly Jerusalem is your domain...Did I say something about wishful thinking?

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    5. Dan,

      So you replied that you do not carry a passport for the Messianic Kingdom Realm of Israel. Yet you still believe you have membership in that Kingdom. Thus, you have HOPE and FAITH.

      And, by the way, I never said anything about having citizenship (and thus legal rights) in the Modern State of Israel. We're talking about 2 different realms. Notice I choose my term carefully when I say "Messianic Kingdom Realm of Israel."

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    6. "So you replied that you do not carry a passport for the Messianic Kingdom Realm of Israel. "

      You also don't carry one.

      "And, by the way, I never said anything about having citizenship (and thus legal rights) in the Modern State of Israel."

      But you keep implying, why then you get involved in Jewish internal stuff?

      " Notice I choose my term carefully when I say "Messianic Kingdom Realm of Israel."

      "Should Gentiles be angry when Jerusalem is attacked? When they see the satanic Mosque sitting where the Temple should stand?

      Should Gentiles rejoice when Jerusalem rejoices?

      In other words, should we not see Jerusalem as the capital of our family?"

      I rest my case....You do stick your nose in earthly Jerusalem, do you not?

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    7. Dan,

      How I am sticking my nose into anything? Are you saying I should not feel anything when a satanic mosque sits atop the Holy Mountain? Are you saying that Jews are not my brethren and so I should not care what happens to them?

      Your argument is absurd.

      Meanwhile, my Messiah is a Jew and I'll continue to view the Jewish People as part of my family. They are my brothers.

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    8. Please make up your mind....Do you now agree that the "messianic Kingdom realm of Israel" is earthly? Or when you speak of the Holy mountain where the the "Temple should stand" is just a figure of speech? Didn't I say you speak with a fork tongue?

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    9. Dan,

      Does not Isaiah metonymically refer to the People of Israel as Zion? He says, "And I have put my words in your mouth and covered you in the shadow of my hand, establishing the heavens and laying the foundations of the earth, and saying to Zion, ‘You are my People,'" (Isaiah 51:16).

      Have the Gentiles not been grafted into this People?

      I speak the Truth. The Truth you don't want to hear: that Zion is the nexus of earth and heaven, a symbol of the People of Israel, it is much more than simply the capital of the Modern State of Israel--it is the Messianic Hope, presently lying in ruins, but a small tent that will be raised up into a powerful Fortress, the seat of all Authority from whence the Torah shall go forth, the source of all Light, the source of Water, the source of the soul of the People of G-d--a People composed of more than just Jews.

      Would you have us believe that Zionism is merely a secular thing? Or is Torah the heart and soul of Zionism? And if it is spiritual as well as physical then do not say that I speak with forked tongue but acknowledge that Israel is more than the physical or earthly realm--acknowledge that Israel is a family broader than the Modern State!

      Yes, the Modern State does not recognize all of its family members yet. But it is G-d who creates the family. We are not dependent on man's recognition to exist. Our membership is in a Torah community.

      True Zionism must recognize that the People of G-d is made through Yeshua and consists of more than just Jews.

      But true sons of Zion will not try to harm our Jewish brother nor take from them but rather to serve in all humility, to die if necessary, because it is written:

      "67 Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph, and chose not the tribe of Ephraim: 68 But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved," (Psalms 78:67-68)

      No one may take the scepter from Judah.




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    10. Peter,

      You talk about the future, but you want to take it today.....Keep pulling the wool.....

      Delete
  7. I often hear people on messianic websites say the covenants all are in force, one just adds to the next. Does anyone think the Duet 28 covenant is still in effect? If so, what does that mean for all those of the covenant that reject the law?

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    Replies
    1. Anonymous,

      You came to the right place to ask that question. Yes, I do think that Deuteronomy 28 is still in effect. However, once the New Covenant is consummated (i.e. once He gives us both the desire and the ability to obey His Instructions perfectly), only the blessings in Deuteronomy 28 will remain.

      Thanks for visiting and commenting.

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    2. So, you mean to say we have neither the desire nor the ability to obey his instructions so the cursing of Duet 28 is still in effect? That would explain alot.

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  8. Peter is a champion and strong voice (along with Tim Hegg) for the One Law message and movement.

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    Replies
    1. Thank you for the encouragement. That's very kind of you to say.

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  9. We don't know what is going to happen before the Lord returns, America could potentially no longer exist, (as all previous great empires, land people owned before is gone, no longer belongs to them...) we could be kicked out of America one day or conquered by Russia or China, who knows, doesn't matter any ways. What God has planned will come to pass. What we do know, is the world will be restructured under the Messiah's rule and what He says, goes. Honestly, whether gentile believers will live in the land of Israel or not, will not necessarily matter, right now it sounds so good, because we want a place, where as a nation the commandments will be kept, a place where we can thrive together, we want to be as close to the King as possible, making our lives so much more pleasant, but when Yeshua rules the world, all the nations will abide by the commandments or face judgment... just know, where ever God assigns our lot, we will be very happy. He is a loving father and He has our best interest in mind.

    I tend to think in the Messianic Kingdom, we (gentiles) will either live inside Israel or on the outskirts, because we are among the resurrected, many will be in the Messianic Kingdom who have not put on the resurrection, but it also says we will rule and reign with Him, some maybe put into the places of rulership over other nations. Maybe even the Caribbean Islands... lol :P

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  10. Zion,

    First you write this:
    "We don't know what is going to happen before the Lord returns, America could potentially no longer exist, (as all previous great empires, land people owned before is gone, no longer belongs to them...) we could be kicked out of America one day or conquered by Russia or China, who knows, doesn't matter any ways. What God has planned will come to pass. What we do know"

    And then you write this:
    "I tend to think in the Messianic Kingdom, we (gentiles) will either live inside Israel or on the outskirts,"

    So you do know?

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    Replies
    1. Nope, I simply am guessing, no one knows what will happen, I made up a bunch of scenarios and guesses, which is all anyone can do. It is like a big "would if" game. Which is why I wrote:

      "wherever God assigns our lot, we will be very happy. He is a loving father and He has our best interest in mind."

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