Up until this past weekend, I understood that tzitzit MUST be worn on the outside. But a new Sephardic friend mentioned that the Sephardic Jews typically tuck their tzitzit in (there are many reasons for this) and fulfill the mitzvah of observing the tzitzit at various times throughout the day.
The more I think about this Sephardic tradition the more I like it. It eliminates the possibility that someone could become arrogant regarding his tzitzit. It makes the tzitzit more special because it is hidden. But enough of my thoughts...
QUESTION:
Do you feel that tzitzit should be worn visibly all the time or do you prefer the Sephardic tradition of keeping the tzitzit hidden?
As I mentioned in another comment, Yeshua was teaching the law to the little guy. His words are meant to be a solid foundation that cannot be moved, when they are kept. What is the doctrine that he spoke that is from the Father?
ReplyDeleteFor me, this comes to mind: " a city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."
Well, biblically, tzitzit are to be seen. Sephardics use it inside their shirts because of kabalistic reasons - something about inner spirituality (tsitsit katan tucked in) and outer one (talit gadol used during shacharit). Ideally I think they should be worn outside. However, since the real obligation - halachicly speaking - is only met with the tallit gadol during shacharit, I guess that, if someone would rather wear it tucked in for personal reasons, than let him do it this way. I personally think this is the best way for beginners whose torah life is not consolidated to wear them.
ReplyDeleteOn the issue of dairy and meat: I believe it to be unresolved. We have two traditions (rabbanites and karaites) that treat it differently and we really can't know what was the meaning of the prohibition originally. The Apostolic Writings teach us to do what would NOT scandalize the jewish community and the unbelievers.
Tradition must be set aside when it creates division in the body against gentiles [this is how I read Paul overall]. This dietary practice has nothig to do with excluding the gentile from the body, and I honestly see no reason, but for the pleasure of eating it itsef, not to follow this.
The whole "reason for the mitzvot" issue is very complicated... the Torah does not give a reason to the dietary practices [like meat and milk] - doing so may be very much like saying: pig is ok nowadays, it wasnt before because of diseases. Torah does not so, and there is no evidence for this on in particular. This was rambam's opinion, but was never proven. I mean, it was thought to be proven for sometime, but nowadays the evidence is read in another way so does not apply
Abraham is not a good example on this because:
1. He could've eaten the milk first, and the meat after, which would be ok even for todays halacha
2. He didn't have the Torah, or at least not as it was given to bnei Israel. If Abrahams practice would be the source of halachic decisions the commandment not to marry a sister would be nullified...
Summary: since we do not really know what the prohibition was, and since we should give good testimony, it is advisable to adhere to the prohibition.
Torah doesn't actually prohibit mixing meat and dairy, only the ancient pagan practice of boiling a young goat in its mother's milk. The rabbis took this and ran with it even though Abraham clearly served meat and dairy to his visitors, apparently thinking that it was a very pleasing combination.
ReplyDeleteThis is the illusion of "biblically kosher". There is no such thing. If you choose to make your own rules on milk and meat, then the community nature of Kashrut is gone. The next point will be that you allow eggs from non-kosher fowl, for eggs are not meat. And after that you'll discover that the traditional categorization of kosher fowl cannot be derived from Scripture alone and that there are disputed kinds of fish. Where will you end if you go this way?
ReplyDeleteNor is it true that the prohibition is only about an ancient pagan ritual. The text of the Torah is delivered to us to be obeyed in its details, regardless what was the occasion of a particular law. Probably the prohibition of shaving one's temples is also related to ancient idolatrous practices. But it is prohibited still nowadays, in a context without idolatry.
It is not without reason that the combination of milk and meat is prohibited. Slaughtering and cooking are intimately related to the Temple, because the thanksgiving sacrifes are to be consumed within its precincts. The permission for secular slaughter outside the Temple is an exception that is still reminiscent of the Temple ritual through the laws of Shechitah. In ancient times this permission could easily lead to idolatry because slaughtering was so intimately connected to sacrificial worship, both in Israel and in pagan cultures. For that reason the prohibition of mixing milk and meat was very helpful to avoid the danger of idolatry. And I see no reason why we should change these ancient rules and precautions.
I find it very sad that Messianics try to outsmart the Rabbis in these technical matters of halachah and that each one acts as if he is an halachic expert. The end result will be that each person is on his own and it will become impossible to organize community meals. If a person chooses to be his own Posek, then how long will even his family members obey him?
This is the illusion of "biblically kosher". There is no such thing. If you choose to make your own rules on milk and meat, then the community nature of Kashrut is gone.
ReplyDeleteThere is no illusion in understanding what the Bible says about kosher. As for choosing to make up ones own rules, then the rabbinic literature is a prime example. Since we cannot verify the rabbinic rules concerning Kashrut in Torah, the real illusion is not what the Bible plainly states, but what it does not state. Thus you argument is a dead end.
With that said, there is nothing wrong with the Kashrut rules, such as not mixing meat and milk, and this should be honored among those who do observe this way, but to argue this is what the Torah teaches, without any proof, is not an adequate argument in and of itself.
Zion,
ReplyDeleteHere is where you guys are wrong...
You guys attack rabbinic about tzitzit and separating meat and milk on one hand, saying that it is not in Scriptures, and then, you go and work on establishing a new halacha for communion....Which also is not in Scriptures...
This is crazy!
Zion said: There is no illusion in understanding what the Bible says about kosher.
ReplyDeleteReply: If you are so sure, then answer the two following questions on a purely biblical basis:: (1) Is turkey a kosher fowl species? (2) are eggs from non-kosher fowl permitted or prohibited?
Zion said: [...] there is nothing wrong with the Kashrut rules, such as not mixing meat and milk, and this should be honored among those who do observe this way, but to argue this is what the Torah teaches, without any proof, is not an adequate argument in and of itself.
Reply: What do you understand by the Torah here? And what are your criteria of proof?
If you are so sure, then answer the two following questions on a purely biblical basis:: (1) Is turkey a kosher fowl species? (2) are eggs from non-kosher fowl permitted or prohibited?
ReplyDelete1) Some do not consider Turkey Kosher, also some do not consider Tuna Kosher. However the Turkey is not on the ban list of birds we are not to eat, and Tuna surprisingly does have scales, even though they are extremely small.
2) I would consider this off limits with the species that we are told not to eat. If the species is not to be consumed, then this should be true for anything that comes from the species. To argue that it is possible to eat an unclean species eggs, is playing off of technicality, not a good argument. There is a reason that animal is off limits and its eggs, are the spawn of that very animal.
Dan, there is nothing wrong with traditions in their proper place. I was not attacking Rabbinic traditions, I practice many Rabbinic traditions, as I find they are helpful in fulfilling the commandments.
ReplyDeleteYour reasoning in both cases is not based on Scripture or on principles found in Scripture.
ReplyDelete(1) Turkey was not known in biblical times and that it is permitted cannot be concluded from the list of prohibited fowl found in the Pentateuch, unless you make the unwarrented assumption that the biblical text can be bluntly applied to new contexts without any hermeneutic precautions. This is like reasoning that we can simply use all electric devices on the Sabbath because the use of electricity isn't prohibited by the literal text. Such an approach to halachah is in my eyes completey amateuristic and arbitrary.
The Torah text doesn't give identifying characteristics of kosher or treif fowl. It only gives some examples of treif fowl, even without even claiming completeness. The list is not followed by a declaration that all other kinds are permitted. In the case of fish, for example, an explicit prohibition against all other kinds follows the mentioning of the permitted kinds. Such a thing is lacking in the case of fowl.
(2) No scriptural text excludes the use of things produced by non-kosher animals. This is simply your own invention. Only the animal itself is prohibited.
In general, your perspective in this discussion is a Sola Scriptura approach. But I think that such an approach, while claiming to honour the authority of Scripture, in fact undermines it. For it lifts Scripture out of its historical context and makes its authority sterile and abstract. And in the long term it makes many scriptural injunctions irrelevant, because it doesn't know how to derive principles that can apply to new situations.
For a defense of the traditional halachah on meat and milk view my article: http://messianic613.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/on-the-separation-of-meat-milk-why-the-traditional-halachah-should-be-followed/
Well biblically, the scriptures teach us not to be stupid either. We are to exercise caution in all of our doings. Can the dust praise Him? Can it tell His truth? Wise as a serpent, gentle as a dove. Does any of this resonate? I'll hide the tzitzit when the situation calls for it and show them likewise.
ReplyDeleteOn the other matter, I can claim with great certainty that I have never boiled a baby goat in its mother's milk. The occasional cheeseburger is another story. ;) I don't even care if the cow was sacrificed to idols and ritualistic incantations of some 'mystery' religion were recited over it's blood, long as I didn't do it!
When Y'shua told the P'rushim and Cohen that the Kingdom of Heaven would be taken from them and given to those that will produce it's fruit; in the years that followed, all that they ruled over was taken from them. I believed Him then. Still do now. I prefer His halacha to theirs.
So follow whichever rabbis you choose. The Jewish community and their leaders have some great information to share. But I am not concerned about their authority. There is only One in charge now. If I err in any of my doings, when He comes, He will set all things right. Of that I am certain too.
Turkey was not known in biblical times and that it is permitted cannot be concluded from the list of prohibited fowl found in the Pentateuch, unless you make the unwarrented assumption that the biblical text can be bluntly applied to new contexts without any hermeneutic precautions.
ReplyDeleteGod did not realize Turkey existed? I am not buying the argument that in this region of the world Turkey was not a common species...
The Torah text doesn't give identifying characteristics of kosher or treif fowl.
Exactly, so anything outside of that is simply man made...
No scriptural text excludes the use of things produced by non-kosher animals. This is simply your own invention. Only the animal itself is prohibited.
Neither does it allow for such, however it would be safer to acknowledge an unclean animal's offspring is also unclean, I don't think that is unreasonable. However to argue it did not give this detail, would be unreasonable. It is like the rebellious child in the classroom trying to find fault in technicality, it fails to understand the principle.
I decline to comment on this dilettantish nonsense.
ReplyDeleteMy take is that you follow the halacha of the community you are a part of. If you want to follow all the details of the most common held rabbinic teaching or this or that particular rabbinic teaching, fine. Enjoy yourself tearing your toilet paper prior to Shabbat to prevent working. Isn't it more work to wipe you tuches? Especially if you have a big one?
ReplyDelete