Wednesday, August 22, 2012

How Do We Know That We Know Him? Question 30


Jeremiah 31:34  " And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

But we're in the era of the New Covenant and we still don't know G-d.  

Question 30:

How and when does this "knowing" G-d take place?  And how do you know that know Him?  Is it even possible for a finite being to understand an infinite being???

20 comments:

  1. I am not sure I understand what you mean by New Covenant era? The New Covenant will not be made or cut with Israel until after all of Israel has come into the land. Jeremiah 50 refers to this time period after the destruction of Babylon, making the everlasting covenant.

    In other words, until national Israel as one makes this covenant agreement, it ain't happened yet. So until we actually see the New Covenant made, don't expect to see its fulfillment's, just my 2 cents.

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    1. What about Matthew 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins"?

      I understood that to mean that just like Jewish marriage has two stages, erusin (betrothal) and nissuin (marriage), that Yeshua initiated the first stage erusin...and in Judaism betrothal establishes a legal relationship. But, hey, I could be wrong.

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  2. Well, like the covenant made at Sinai in the presence of all Israel, this has yet to occur again, when that happens, then lets talk about some fulfillments. I agree that Yeshua set somethings in motion, but I don't believe we are part of a New Covenant just yet, the nation has to make another agreement, to make an everlasting covenant with God.

    Jeremiah 50:5
    They will ask for the way to Zion, turning their faces in its direction; they will come that they may join themselves to the Lord in an everlasting covenant that will not be forgotten.

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  3. What about the fact that the Levitical high priest could not forgive sin, but now are sins are forgiven?

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    1. Were sin's never forgiven before Yeshua came?

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    2. Zion,

      But how were they forgiven? Was it not by atonement via the Temple system? So how then are we saved after Temple's destruction? Non-Messianic Jews say that we are saved by good works. Messianic Jews say that we are saved by Yeshua's blood sacrifice. This is the heart of the New Covenant that we could be saved by Moshiach Himself. This salvation was not possible until New Covenant. Keep in mind that New Covenant has not been "finalized" per se. We are in a state of betrothal to Yeshua but the wedding of the Lamb is yet to come. Yes, there will be national aspects in the future. The Passover will be performed at the New Temple in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 45:21).

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    3. But how were they forgiven? Was it not by atonement via the Temple system? So how then are we saved after Temple's destruction? Non-Messianic Jews say that we are saved by good works. Messianic Jews say that we are saved by Yeshua's blood sacrifice. This is the heart of the New Covenant that we could be saved by Moshiach Himself. This salvation was not possible until New Covenant. Keep in mind that New Covenant has not been "finalized" per se. We are in a state of betrothal to Yeshua but the wedding of the Lamb is yet to come. Yes, there will be national aspects in the future. The Passover will be performed at the New Temple in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 45:21).

      So all before Yeshua were not saved? Only those after him?

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    4. Zion,

      I can honestly tell you that this is mystery to me. I believe that the old system through the Levitical priesthood offered provisional atonement; the new system through Melchizedek priesthood offered full atonement. But the precise differences between the two systems is a mystery to me. Perhaps someone out there knows?

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    5. See I hold a different view, the Levitical Priesthood was/is for the purpose of temporal cleansing, but Yeshua was promised from the very beginning before there was even a Levitical priesthood. This in and of itself, to me says that forgiveness is found in Him, from the very beginning.

      If it is not this case, then we can easily say that Yeshua is not the way the truth and the life, instead we could say He is one way and one truth and one life, and before He came there were other ways. Is anyone here willing to make that claim? Because if so, I would like to hear it.

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    6. Zion,

      We know that there's a heavenly Temple which is the real Temple. And so it makes sense that the blood is representative of Yeshua. It's also possible that Yeshua's atonement was not bound by linear time constraints, that its efficacy stretched out to the past as well as the future. So you might be on to something there.

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  4. I think Dan has the correct essence of the truthful answer. 1 John 2 speaks of these things.

    “He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.”

    So, we see that “Knowing G-d” and “Keeping his Commandments” are tied together.

    I am writing to you, little children,
    because your sins are forgiven for his name's sake.
    I am writing to you, fathers,
    because you know him who is from the beginning.
    I am writing to you, young men,
    because you have overcome the evil one.
    I write to you, children,
    because you know the Father.
    I write to you, fathers,
    because you know him who is from the beginning.
    I write to you, young men,
    because you are strong,
    and the word of God abides in you,
    and you have overcome the evil one.

    And how is all this possible, keeping of Torah and Knowing G-d? It is possible for the work Yeshua did culminating in the sending of the Ruach haKodesh and his anointing living inside those who believe.

    “But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.”

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    1. Is this a different Anonymous from the Anonymous on the post entitled Hakahal Chukah Achat? I was just curious. I like this comment very much. It articulates what I was feeling on the matter.

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    2. Yes, same Anonymous, I THOUGHT we were closer on the matter than at first apparent. :)

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  5. Zion,

    The atonement before Yeshua was temporal.

    Yeshua's atonement is eternal.

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    1. So was Abraham and Moses not forgiven, if it was only temporal, are they saved?

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  6. Zion,

    1) "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad." (John 8:56)

    2) " For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin." (Hebrews 10:4).

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  7. To me it means that in OT times people were saved the way we do now. There is no other way of salvation but through Yeshua.

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  8. It is impossible to fully understand a transcendent being (Isaiah 55:9; cp John 1:18; 1 John 4:12; 1 Timothy 6:16) however we can know He exists and something of His invisible attributes (Psalm 19:1-4; Ecclesiastes 3:11; Romans 1:18-20) To more fully understand Hashem we must look toward His Maschiach who is the image of the invisible (Colossians 1:15). In a sense, Yeshua serves as the interface between the eternal and the finite, the transcendent and the immanent. We know that we know Him when we obey out of love and gratitude and when we love His children (John 13:34-35; 14:15, 21; 1 John 5:2).

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