Tuesday, August 7, 2012

Sharing Our Struggles: Question 15

One of the things I'd like for this blog is that people feel welcome to come and share any struggles they're having so that we, as a Body, can encourage one another.

For example, my family is having a struggle finding a congregation where we feel we belong.  So without further ado:

QUESTION 15:

Do you have anything on your heart that you would like to talk about?



28 comments:

  1. Sure, I will start one, does anyone else get the impression, that groups like FFOZ and Bilateral Ecclessiology hold a prejudice against Gentiles? A form of anti-gentilism...

    "stay in your churches, don't come near us" "ok, you can stay, but you cannot participate, because you are not one of us..." "You are always welcome to give money..."

    "Gentiles think they are greater than the Rabbis, they want to steal our identity and tell us were wrong, etc etc."

    Since supersessionism is so rampant in Christianity, is anti-gentilism simply the antidote.

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    1. As a guy, I want to be a problem-solver. But this problem (how to change hearts and minds) is too difficult for any one man to solve. We'll have to be praying about this and join forces to stand up for the rights of those suffering under anti-gentile policies.

      Here's a good quote from Brown v. Board of Education which ended racial segregation in public schools:

      "Segregation with the sanction of law, therefore, has a tendency to [retard] the educational and mental development of negro children and to deprive them of some of the benefits they would receive in a racial[ly] integrated school system... We conclude that, in the field of public education, the doctrine of "separate but equal" has no place."

      I believe that anti-gentile policies in certain Messianic institutions are retarding the Torah development of gentile children (and men and women). I could tell you stories about some of the inferiority complexes I've witnessed in such gentiles exposed to main line Messianic institutions, how entire lives have been destroyed because of it.

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    2. Pure racism...I am saying this as a Jew...

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    3. Just call Messianic Jews and their organizations "Nazis" and "supremacists" and you'll feel so much better.

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  2. "I could tell you stories about some of the inferiority complexes I've witnessed in such gentiles exposed to main line Messianic institutions, how entire lives have been destroyed because of it."

    And I could tell you many stories of just the opposite - of Gentiles richly blessed by being in Messianic Jewish congregations. The difference between your bitter stories and their stories of finding joy in fellowship with Jewish believers - expectations. Some time ago Stuart Dauermann addressed this problem of "disappointed Gentile friends" in this way:

    "What causes some Gentiles who visit my congregation to be disappointed with us? Only three things. First, they can experience disappointment when we lead them to expect something they do not receive. Second they can experience disappointment when they receive something unexpected, unpleasant, and unwelcome. Third, they can experience disappointment when they harbor expectations at variance with what they find with us."

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  3. The problem is that Dauermann's congregation did not accept Gentiles....Read their about us statement...

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    1. I applaud you for having the courage to speak out against this injustice, even though it means you will most certainly be attacked by Gene and others.

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    2. Dan doesn't need courage. He doesn't associate with any Messianic Jews face-to-face and heart-to-heart, nor does he consider himself part of the Messianic Jewish movement. He's part of the "loyal opposition", working to tear down what he himself has not built.

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  4. "The problem is that Dauermann's congregation did not accept Gentiles"

    Dan, I know some of the non-Jews who attend or attended (when he was there) his congregation. I've talked to them. Which makes your statement either ignorant or malicious (but probably both).

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    1. Gene,

      Did you know that the Rabbis when they spoke of accepting a convert into Judaism, they said that the convert had "been brought near"? So this implies that before conversion the gentile must be kept apart, correct? Does that sound like Ephesians 2? Does it say "once you were separate but now you...well, you're still separate but..."?

      Also, these gentiles who stay in main line Messianic synagogues and they claim to love it...this does not prove that it's good for them. In fact, what you see is that the women feel like they have to marry a Jew in order to fit in and be accepted as family. What you hear them saying--and I know plenty of gentile women who attend UMJC synagogue--is them constantly saying "I think I have some Jewish ancestry" or "I just found out that I might have Jewish ancestry" or any number of variants. One night at a Shabbat dinner I literally heard at least three girls tell me that. It makes me sad that they've been indoctrinated by the UMJC to feel like they're not as good unless they're ethnically Jewish.

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    2. Gene, I did not make a statement, I only pointed people to Ahavat zion website were it was specifically stated that the congregation is for Jews and mixed marriage couple, nothing said a bout gentiles, which of course mirrors Dauermann's beliefs....

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    3. " It makes me sad that they've been indoctrinated by the UMJC to feel like they're not as good unless they're ethnically Jewish."

      No, Peter, that's exactly what One-Law and Two-House has taught them. YOU believe that too, since you yourself have said on more than one occasion that there's nothing good about a person remaining a Gentile. That's what so sad, that you see in others what you yourself have perpetuated. Don't blame it on the Jews!

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    4. Gene,

      Their identity should be as Israelites, not Jews. Paul says to stop acting the way they did when they WERE gentiles (past tense). And Paul teaches them to view themselves as citizens of Israel with all attendant covenantal rights (Eph 2). So to teach them otherwise only promotes identity confusion. You're promoting that they have an unhealthy identity: non-Israelites. This makes them, understandably, feel excluded from G-d's people. It makes them desperate to feel included/approved/clean. Have you ever attended a UMJC synagogue? I've witnessed this phenomenon for years.

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    5. "You're promoting that they have an unhealthy identity: non-Israelites. This makes them, understandably, feel excluded from G-d's people."

      G-d has included Gentiles as Gentiles. There's no need for fantasies. Abraham is the father of many nations.

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    6. Gene, you promote the same racist filth, you should be ashamed of yourself.

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    7. "Gene, you promote the same racist filth, you should be ashamed of yourself."

      OK, Zion, you are saying that I am racist for stating that G-d has accepted Gentiles as Gentiles and doesn't require them to convert to Judaism and also for saying that Abraham is their father too? And I am the one who should be ashamed of spewing filth? What a warped thinking, like some alternative universe! It's like calling good evil, and evil good.

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    8. "OK, Zion, you are saying that I am racist for stating that G-d has accepted Gentiles as Gentiles and doesn't require them to convert to Judaism and also for saying that Abraham is their father too?"

      Nope. Instead, it is your view that Gentiles are not considered as now part of the family. Instead some separate family with a separate religion... The reason you are a racist is due to these beliefs, that you also share with FFOZ and BE groups.

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    9. "Instead, it is your view that Gentiles are not considered as now part of the family."

      Of course believing Gentiles are considered part of the family - the family of Abraham (Galatians 3:29) and family of G-d. Your accusation against Jewish believers is baseless and filled with prejudice.

      "This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel" (Ephesians 3:6)

      What does the above say? Heirs together with Israel - not AS Israel, as Supersessionism teaches.

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    10. "Your accusation against Jewish believers is baseless and filled with prejudice."

      My accusation is not against Jewish believers, instead it is against people like you who are prejudice against gentiles, and you twist scripture thinking it some how justifies it, you are no different than supersessionist, just flip the coin.

      ""This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel" (Ephesians 3:6)"

      Consider Ephesians 2, where it says Gentiles were at one point excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, before Messiah. Being part of the commonwealth of Israel is being part of Israel. But your prejudices have blinded you.

      Isaiah 56:3
      Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say, “The Lord will surely separate me from His people.”

      Yet, Gene will separate the foreigner in a heart beat.

      Good luck with that...

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  5. Gene,

    If you really check for once what One-Law teaches you will find that they discourage gentiles from becoming Jews...Your slip (ignorance) is showing...

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  6. What's on my heart? The bitter division between the Messianic Jewish and the Hebrew Roots movements.

    It's why it's so sad to hear stuff like what Boaz said the other week. Ripping apart fellow disciples of Yeshua, speaking great ill of one another. Hebrew Roots folks have done this to Christians, and now Messianic Judaism folks are doing it to Hebrew Roots people.

    So sad to see among Yeshua's own disciples. Where is the love that's supposed to characterize us? Both groups uphold Yeshua and look to the Torah as a source for holy living, and how to we get along? We rip each other apart as "false friends of Israel", "supersessionists", "racists".

    Where is the love of Yeshua in that? And don't tell me it's all "righteous rebuke" -- anyone worth their salt can look at these arguments that take place in the Messianic blogosphere and see there's real bitterness, anger, vindictiveness there.

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    1. Judah, you are just as guilty of this as your fellow associates here. Time after time you've ripped into Messianic Jews and organizations on your blog. Where was your love of Yeshua in all the stuff you said?

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    2. Judah,

      You are absolutely right. I for one will try to make more of an effort to be less adversarial. I want to start focusing on how to build truly loving communities rather than devote all of my time calling out the ones I perceive to be unloving.

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  7. With participants like Boom Boom Shlomovich, one cannot help but getting cynical....

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  8. One God, one law, one shepherd, one flock.

    This xenophobia is ridiculous.

    If "gentiles" are not to have same rules, then why does the nations flow to Mt. Zion to learn His ways and to walk in His paths? Why will His law go forth, of no one but Jews are to obey it?

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    1. S. King,

      Precisely! And that is such an apt word "xenophobia." So true.

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