Sunday, August 5, 2012

Rabbinic Authority: Question 12

Recently, FFOZ said that the Rabbis of Rabbinic Judaism have authority over Messianic believers in Yeshua.  


QUESTION 12:

What authority, if any, do you feel the Rabbis have over Messianic believers in Yeshua?

19 comments:

  1. Not any more than I would consider a Pastor or a Teacher. We do have communal authority today, but that is really all we have.

    Neither Rabbis or Pastors have the authority described in Deut 17. People who claim such are doing it either in ignorance or deceit.

    When there is a proper Theocracy described in the Torah and Priest in force, then lets carry this conversation farther. ;D

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    1. "Neither Rabbis or Pastors have the authority described in Deut 17. People who claim such are doing it either in ignorance or deceit."

      You are confused. Do you think that Deut 17 only allows for priests to be judges? Also, do you think that G-d would have Jewish people be without their communal leaders for thousands of years? Messiah himself acknowledged the authority of Jewish communal leaders in Matthew 23:2-3.

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    2. Gene,

      The Sanhedrin gave strict orders not to preach in Yeshua's name (Acts 5). Did they have Divine authority to issue such an injunction?

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    3. Gene, too much philosophy and too little facts. You need to wake up. Deut 17 is not around today, the Sanhedrin are gone, it as if you are trying to argue for being able to sacrifice in your back yard. It is absurd.

      And you quote Matthew 23, like a blind man. Yeshua and the Apostles at many times denied and went against the ruling and teachings of the Pharisees in many instances. Deal with it...

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    4. "The Sanhedrin gave strict orders not to preach in Yeshua's name (Acts 5). Did they have Divine authority to issue such an injunction?"

      Read Acts 5 to see where they crossed the line.

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  2. The concept of a man having spiritual authority over another is dangerous ground. Take, for example, that at the beginning of the 16th century the pope was selling indulgences, claiming that if someone were to buy an indulgence, the time in purgatory would be reduced. Further, there were kings of Israel that set up a gold calf in Dan, claiming that this gold calf was G-d.

    I think there is a balance to it. Yes, we can and should listen to those who are wiser than we are and know more, so long as they truly do serve G-d and are not full of deceit. In 1 John, we are told that the criteria for a false prophet and a real one is that a true prophet will confess that Yeshua is the Messiah. Beyond that, I feel that giving one authority over another simply because of titles is beginning to tread dangerous water.

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    1. Arthur,

      That's good stuff. I'm constantly amazed by the Jerusalem Council and how such prestigious men were able to come together and resolve disputes without egos being injured. They seemed to respect the fact that authority comes not from any one man but rather a matrix of leadership led by the Holy Spirit. There was no pyramidal hierarchy like the papal system. Even James in Acts 15 was only able to issue a decision after there was unanimous agreement.

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    2. "The concept of a man having spiritual authority over another is dangerous ground. "

      Arthur, but that's not how G-d directed Israel to operate, with prophets, priests and judges. Just because evil leaders have abuse their authority, this does not nullify the fact that all authorities exist because G-d has placed them there (Romans 13:1-2) and that they are there for the preservation of order and justice.

      "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which G-d has established. The authorities that exist have been established by G-d. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what G-d has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves".

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    3. There is one thing I forgot to mention that I should have earlier. The Levitical priesthood continues to exist in a sense as it does in Deut 17. The entire book of Hebrews speaks as to how Yeshua has become our high priest. In addition, G-d made the promise, and kept it, that we all have an indwelling of His Spirit, so that we have that connection to Father through the High Priest.

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    4. Arthur, Yeshua's priesthood is not Levitical or a replacement of earthly duties of priests and Levites - he was of the tribe of Judah and Melchizedek High Priest.

      Levites and priests are not obsolete and will once again serve in the rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem (Jeremiah 33:20).

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  3. There is also the concept of the blind leaders, we are instructed to leave them and their students alone...

    "Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up."

    So, not everyone who is a communal leader should be followed.

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    1. So, Anonymous, what you are saying, in essence, is that because the Jewish people had not accepted Jesus as Messiah, G-d has left them without any authoritative communal leaders and has taken from the Jewish people the authority to interpret Torah? Correct? That authority has been transferred to the Church, right?

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  4. Gene, I think I was clear to my meaning without you needing to paraphrase me into the supersessionism corner. The question is "what did Yeshua mean when he said it".

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    1. "Gene, I think I was clear to my meaning without you needing to paraphrase me into the supersessionism corner."

      You did this without my help.

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    2. Gene, so you are saying Yeshua is a supersessionist?

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  5. "Is you name Yeshua?"

    Gene, Starting to think you do not agree with Yeshua's position on authority.

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  6. A: In regards to observing the mitzvot.

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