Thursday, December 13, 2012

Lloyd Gaston on the Subtleties of Christian Anti-Judaism


"Possibly anti-Judaism is too deeply embedded in the foundations of Christianity to be rooted out entirely without destroying the whole structure," --Rosemary Ruether

"Perhaps I should make clear what I mean when I speak of antisemitism or anti-Judaism...Just as individuals can be relatively free of personal prejudice and still participate actively in a system of racism, so anti-Judaism has to do with the objective effect of the words used, whether or not the people who speak them subjectively hate Jews.  This underlines the seriousness of Ruether's point that theological anti-Judaism is the fundamental root of later cultural and political antisemtism.  (Philosemitism, in other words, is no excuse.)  If the three pillars on which Judaism stands are God, Torah, and Israel, then a fundamental attack on any of the three would be anti-Judaism..."
pg. 17 Paul and the Torah by Lloyd Gaston

I thought these quotes were interesting and I had two points I wanted to share:

(1) if hatred of Mosaic Torah leads to socio-political anti-Semitism, then shouldn't Gentiles love the Mosaic Torah?  And if they love the Mosaic Torah and it is something intended for the nations (Isaiah 2, etc), shouldn't all Gentiles embrace a Torah lifestyle (i.e. Judaism)?

(2) if one is culpable for racism by participating in a racist system, then could one be culpable for anti-Judaism by participating in an anti-Judaic system?  I think it's possible.  But I also think any culpability can be nullified by being open about your beliefs.  For example, if you start wearing a kippah to church then they'll probably get the message that you are pro-Judaic.  


40 comments:

  1. "And if they love the Mosaic Torah and it is something intended for the nations (Isaiah 2, etc), shouldn't all Gentiles embrace a Torah lifestyle (i.e. Judaism)?"

    Judaism does not necessarily embrace a Torah lifestyle. "Did not Moses give you the law, and yet...... none of you keep the law? Why go ye about to kill me?" Yeshua

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    1. Would you agree with Paul that the Law is holy, just, and good? Would you agree with Paul that faith is not a license to nullify the Law?

      Yes, men have failed to follow the Torah. But this is not a reason to disobey G-d. Rather, failure is a reason for grace. But we must have grace and obedience.

      Here's another example. If your father said to you "I want you to make me a bowl of soup", would you respond "I've never obeyed you fully in the past so I'm not going to start obeying you now." Of course you would not. You would make the soup as requested because you know that to do otherwise would be a sin and that to obey would bring your father much happiness.

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    2. You can't change Christianity, any more than you can change Judaism, instead you can form another group.

      And this is exactly what happens, this does not mean you cannot relate, but you cannot change the structure, you can only leave. This is why Church's who shift in beliefs(Messianic) are usually kicked off the association they were part of. I know of two churches and some others I have heard of, losing their Baptist license or losing their Methodist license for shifting in beliefs. They have to leave the norm to embrace the truth. Which usually means they are cut off from support as well, both organizational and financially. But this is bound to happen and it is a good thing.

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  2. "Would you agree with Paul that the Law is holy, just, and good? Would you agree with Paul that faith is not a license to nullify the Law?"

    Yes, I agree. Those practicing "Judaism" should repent and return to the Torah. Too often Judaism gives the appearance of godliness, a clean outside with the appearance of holiness. Yeshua is never fooled by "practices", he knows the heart of man that is evil. We all have a wicked heart and filthy rag righteousness, pretense of goodness...until we encounter the powerful message delivered by Yeshua right to the heart. We accept or reject.

    If you want to appear righteous to men and "feel you are doing rightly"..practice Judaism or Catholic. If you want to BE righteous before G-d...practice Torah (the law of love). They are not the same thing.

    "You can't change Christianity, any more than you can change Judaism, instead you can form another group."

    Yes, "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:"

    Blessings Brothers!

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    1. Brother,

      We see the term Judaism in Galatians 1:14. Paul associates this term with the traditions of his ancestors. In Acts 21, Paul demonstrates publicly that he loves the traditions of his ancestors (i.e. Judaism). James says in Acts 21 that there is no truth to the reports that Paul was against Judaism.

      Thus, if Paul is for Judaism then Judaism, in the abstract, is not a sin. Loving the Jewish traditions is not a sin.

      Those things are sinful that involve a transgression of the Law. For example, if someone uses Jewish Tradition to negate a command of the Law then he commits sin.

      But a tradition is not sinful if it conforms to the spirit of the Law, wouldn't you agree?

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  3. I said "not necessarily".....

    Yeshua had the experience of some keeping Judaism who are NOT keeping the Torah. It is a big mistake to equate "Judaism" with "Torah".

    Jewish tradition is not necessarily Torah. "and many other such like things ye do" Mark 7

    Example: Yeshua walked in Solomon’s Porch during the feast of dedication. The Jew’s were keeping “Judaism” celebrating the tradition of “festival of lights” while at that very moment attempting to STONE TO DEATH the “light of the world”.

    A great light came into the darkness, …..and the darkness understood it not. Judaism without Yeshua Messiah is nothing but darkness.

    Yeshua called those practicing Judaism without Torah “blind guides of the blind”. John 5:46
    For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

    Judaism is the pretense of believing Moses while not believing Yeshua. Darkness.

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    1. Too many generalizations in your statements.

      Yeshua practiced Judaism, sure there were some traditions He did not agree with, regardless he still practiced a form of Judaism, and so did the Apostles.

      Delete
  4. Miracle or coincidence....

    I just happened on this teaching at GLC that says it so well!

    By Rabbi Itzhak Shapira

    http://www.godslearningchannel.com/site/watch.php?program=61&video=2749

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  5. "Yeshua practiced Judaism"

    No, Yeshua did not practice Judaism. Yeshua obeyed his father’s commandments. Those keeping Judaism did not keep the fathers commandments and they still don't, including the commandment to hear the prophet like unto Moses mentioned in Duet 18.

    Yeshua commanded we keep HIS commandments as he kept his father’s commandments. He did not command we practice Judaism.

    Judaism in practice does not equate to keeping the commandments and is very different. "Judaism” is what Yeshua commanded we NOT do and listed many “woes” to those who practice it.

    Judaism is without the Holy Spirit, without Yeshua Messiah is without G-d. A Practice without G-d is pure darkness.

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    1. Brother,

      Re: " "Judaism” is what Yeshua commanded we NOT do and listed many “woes” to those who practice it."

      Where did Yeshua say this?

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    2. "Re: " "Judaism” is what Yeshua commanded we NOT do and listed many “woes” to those who practice it."

      Where did Yeshua say this?"

      Brother, of course you know Yeshua did not use the term Judaism nor is it in the bible. But, what do you think the parables were about? Seed sown on bad soil...."Judaism" The seed is the Son of G-d, sown from above....Does "Judaism" have that seed? No, their hearts are too hard. Yeshua kept the law....did Israel? No

      Matthew 23:27
      Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

      What were the scribes and Pharisees teaching? "Judaism"

      What did Stephen say? "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
      Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
      Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, AND HAVE NOT KEPT IT."

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    3. So you think Yeshua created another religion?

      Yeshua kept many of the traditions by which you would consider Judaism, but Judaism is also based on the Torah, this is why many Jews who were practicing Judaism at the time came to accept the Messiah, and continue to practice Judaism, so did Paul, Paul even mentions "the Way" to be a sect of Judaism. Paul continued to attend the Synagogues...

      You are painting with too broad of a brush, the disciples did not leave Judaism for a new religion, that is absurd, and anti-Judaic.

      Delete
    4. Brother (Anonymous),

      How do you interpret the following:

      "23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."

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    5. “Brother (Anonymous),

      How do you interpret the following:

      "23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."”

      Well, first of all I weigh it against what else he said about the scribes and Pharisees such as: Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

      So, Yeshua is NOT saying “be ye also blind and follow those who sit in Moses seat”.

      What might he be talking about? IMO, it is like getting summons to court today…If you get a ticket for speeding and the Judge say’s pay $503.00 judgment in 3 installments every first Monday to satisfy the judgment, do as you are told. Satisfy the judgment but don't follow their example for they preach righteousness but don't do righteousness.

      What is he for sure not saying? He is not saying it is OK to break, add to or diminish from the Law of Moses. He is not saying we should listen to these blind when it comes to fulfilling any commandment Yeshua gave.
      If the scribes and Pharisee’s sit in Moses seat and tell you “do not believe in Yeshua”…..well, I think you get the point.

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    6. My point is that if Yeshua says to follow a certain teaching (i.e. Judaism) then it can't be a sin. Sure, the teachers didn't follow their own teachings. And some of the teachings were wrong. But the good teachings--the ones in the spirit of Torah--would you agree that it's commendable to follow such traditions?

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    7. I guess my point is that Judaism is not what Yeshua ever said to follow. Sitting in the Seat of Moses is for teaching Moses, the law. If Judaism is the keeping of the law in it's proper spirit it would bear the fruit of righteousness. We know a bad tree can not bear good fruit.

      I think Judaism is a corrupt tree. I see no good fruit on it.

      "Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit."

      I think you believe the tree is good and by extension the traditions.

      "But the good teachings--the ones in the spirit of Torah"

      Torah is in the spirit of Torah. The word is perfect. "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple."

      Judaism does not bring forth life, for life is only in Yeshua. Perhaps they will repent before the door closes.

      "Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

      And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

      And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down."

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    8. What traditions of Judaism do you think Yeshua was against? Tzitzit? I've got news for you: He wore tzitzit. Was He against Hannukah? Got news for you: He celebrated Hannukah. This is Judaism and He followed it His entire life. Would He follow something evil? No. So the form of Judaism He practiced is good.

      Yeshua kept kosher, went to synagogue on Shabbat, honored Shabbat. This is Judaism. If you want to say it's evil or sinful then you are calling Yeshua a sinner.

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    9. "What traditions of Judaism do you think Yeshua was against? Tzitzit? I've got news for you: He wore tzitzit. Was He against Hannukah? Got news for you: He celebrated Hannukah. This is Judaism and He followed it His entire life. Would He follow something evil? No. So the form of Judaism He practiced is good.

      Yeshua kept kosher, went to synagogue on Shabbat, honored Shabbat. This is Judaism. If you want to say it's evil or sinful then you are calling Yeshua a sinner"

      Peter, those things are the Law of Moses, not Judaism.

      There is no proof Yeshua kept Hanukkah. The bible only says he was walking in the porch of Solomon during the Feast of Hanukkah. Those keeping Hanukkah tried to kill him.

      You are still trying to equate keeping the Law of Moses such as Tzitzit to Judaism.

      “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. (John 12:47-48 NIV)

      It's amazing how many like you do not believe Yeshua meant what he said.

      Those practicing "Judaism" rather than the Law of Moses do not hear the words Yeshua spoke. It leads to being condemned on the last day. Shalom

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    10. Brother,

      How do you define Judaism? Yeshua practiced first-century Judaism--this is a historical fact. You say He didn't. Thus, you must have a completely different definition for Judaism than everyone else in the world.

      Delete
  6. "You are painting with too broad of a brush, the disciples did not leave Judaism for a new religion, that is absurd, and anti-Judaic."

    So...you believe "Judaism" is good ground that received the seed from above and brought forth fruit? You can walk into any form of "Judaism" right now and find them keeping the law, hearing Moses, believing in Yeshua and the sacrifice of G-d's son?

    Yeshua did not start a new religion, he said "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except by me"

    "Yeshua kept many of the traditions by which you would consider Judaism"

    Yeshua did not "keep traditions" he said he only did what he saw the Father doing.

    John 5:19
    Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

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  7. Mark 7:8
    For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

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  8. "How do you define Judaism? Yeshua practiced first-century Judaism--this is a historical fact. You say He didn't. Thus, you must have a completely different definition for Judaism than everyone else in the world."

    I define "Judaism" as keeping commandments and traditions of men while "laying aside the commandments of G-d". Making a show and pretense of keeping the Law of Moses but inwardly hating G-d and his Son.

    Yeshua's parable about Judaism: "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

    The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

    I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

    And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

    I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

    Steven

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    1. Steven,

      See my response to you in the post after this post.

      There's nothing wrong with traditions of men---provided they don't impinge on the Torah. It's the same with our legal system here in the United States: we don't throw out a law because it is new; rather, we examine it to see if it is Constitutional. If a new law fits with the spirit of the Constitution, doesn't violate the letter of the Constitution, etc, then the new law is said to be Constitutional.

      You do the same thing. Do you attend church? Do you attend synagogue? Then you follow "traditions of men." This is not bad so long as the traditions are in keeping with Torah.

      And let's remember what Paul did in Acts 21 to prove to everyone that he supported the traditions. Remember that it was considered slander to say that Paul was against the traditions. So I suggest that Christians stop slandering Paul. The same goes for Yeshua. If Yeshua observed traditions (e.g. going to synagogue on Shabbat) then Christians cannot say "traditions of men are a sin". To say that is to say that Yeshua was a sinner (and He most assuredly was not).

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  9. "There's nothing wrong with traditions of men---provided they don't impinge on the Torah"

    Peter, what I disagree with you on is your teaching people that YESHUA kept the traditions of men.

    That is not true. He could only do what he saw the Father doing. The Father was most assuredly not observed by Yeshua "Keeping the Traditions of Men".

    Yeshua's teaching was against the "laying aside the commandments of G-d to keep the traditions of men".

    I only teach what he taught which would translate to "don't lay aside the commandments of G-d to keep the traditions of men".

    Now, if those who recieved the Torah passed down through generations were confused on the way to make the correct choice between those actions that "keep the commandments" and those that "lay aside those commandments"......it is proper for Yeshua to bring it up because it is also in the Torah to:

    "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbor, and not suffer sin upon him."

    In conclusion: I have no commandment to "keep the traditions of men". I DO have "a commandment NOT to lay aside the commandments to keep the traditions of men".

    The bible does not teach that Yeshua kept traditions of men. I have no tradition of men that Yeshua has commanded me to keep.

    And one last thing: Traditions of men have a way of becoming additions to the perfect word of G-d. Wearing fringe is not a tradition, it is a commandment. Making them very long from tradition so you appear more righteous to men is not in the law. We do these things thinking we are righteous in doing them....while at the same time we miss the mark of Mercy, Justice and Judgment.

    Shalom Brother!

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    1. Brother,

      Where does it say in Scripture that you must attend synagogue on Shabbat? And yet we read the following:

      "He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read," (Luke 4:16)

      So He followed the traditions of men. In this case, He was following the traditions of Jewish men and women.

      Delete
  10. This site is shocking to me. I have been a Christian since an early age and to see so many references that divide the Christians and the Messianic movement is astounding and troubling. In my life of over 50 years I have never heard one negative comment made toward the Jews or the Messianic Jews, but this site makes it appear that it is everywhere...

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    1. Pear,

      Most Christians don't say anything directly anti-Semitic. They communicate anti-Semitism in less direct ways. For example, they preach against the Law. The Law defines Jewishness. So to be against the Law is to be against Jews. If you require proof, look no further than Nazi Germany, a country that was ninety-percent Lutheran. Oh, but you say that Luther, the founder of Protestantism and revered figure for Protestants everywhere, that he was not an anti-Semite? Then you need to read his little book entitled "On the Jews and Their Lies." Luther provided the blueprint for the holocaust. Hitler explicitly stated in his speeches that Luther's works were Hitler's inspiration.

      If this is shocking to you then I'm glad. You should find Christianity shocking: it presents a religion that is directly opposed to the Judaism practiced by Yeshua, His disciples, and the early, first-century assembly.

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  11. Peter, you believe Yeshua kept the traditions of men. He never said that he came to keep the traditions of men but apparently you can deduce this from what? Your knowledge of the Torah?

    I disagree and believe he came to do the will of his father and only was possible he could do what he saw the father doing and speak what he was commanded to speak.

    I believe he came to fulfill the law. Perhaps there was a "lawful" reason he went to assemble each Shabbat? Perhaps he was commanded by his Father to do so?

    "But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do."

    I am open to change my mind if you can prove to me Yeshua kept the traditions of men, as opposed to the commandment of the Father.

    So, did Yeshua go each week to teach in the assembly because it was man's tradition, or the Fathers commandment?

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    1. "Her priests have violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, NOR HAVE THEY MADE KNOWN THE DIFFERENCE between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them" (Ezekiel 22:26

      Peter asks: “Where does it say in Scripture that you must attend synagogue on Shabbat?”

      Is attendance of synagogue every Shabbat to read, teach, heal, a way to fulfill the commandment in Lev 23?

      Leviticus 23: “Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, AN HOLY CONVOCATION; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.”

      speak 1696 unto the children 1121 of Israel 3478, and say 559 unto them, [Concerning] the feasts 4150 of the LORD 3068, which ye shall proclaim 7121 [to be] holy 6944 convocations 4744, [even] these [are] my feasts 4150.

      1) convocation, convoking, reading, a calling together
      a) convocation, sacred assembly
      b) convoking
      verb (used with object), con·voked, con·vok·ing.
      to call together; summon to meet or assemble.
      c) reading

      "So He followed the traditions of men. In this case, He was following the traditions of Jewish men and women."

      No, Yeshua never kept the "traditions of men". It is important to understand he was "lawful". He only did what was lawful and good on the Shabbat, he was Lord of the Shabbat also.

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    2. Anonymous,

      Exodus 16:29 says "Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out."

      According to the Written Torah, one was supposed to remain in one's dwelling on Shabbat and not go outside. So how then was Yeshua lawfully allowed to leave His dwelling on Shabbat and walk to synagogue?

      I'll await your response.

      Delete
  12. Not to speak for Pear, but.....

    "The Law defines Jewishness. So to be against the Law is to be against Jews."

    IF this is the definition of "Jewishness" and those against the law are against the Jews", THEN the Jews are their own worse enemy?

    "Nevertheless they were disobedient, and rebelled against thee, and cast thy law behind their backs, and slew thy prophets which testified against them to turn them to thee, and they wrought great provocations.

    Therefore thou delivered them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.

    But after they had rest, they did evil again before thee: therefore leftest thou them in the land of their enemies, so that they had the dominion over them: yet when they returned, and cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and many times didst thou deliver them according to thy mercies;

    And testifiedst against them, that thou mightest bring them again unto thy law: yet they dealt proudly, and hearkened not unto thy commandments, but sinned against thy judgments, (which if a man do, he shall live in them;) and withdrew the shoulder, and hardened their neck, and would not hear."

    To this day, if "Jewishness" is defined by keeping the "law of Moses" there are only a very few Jew's in the world. Surely, those marching in Gay pride parades would not be preaching the "law of Moses"?

    Is that anti-Semitic to point out the multitude of Idol's in Jerusalem? Is it anti-Semitic to point out that "therefore leftest thou them in the land of their enemies, so that they had the dominion over them:"

    Is it anti-Semitic to tell these, if they return to G-d and his Law he will hear and have mercy, but if they refuse they will be cast into outer darkness?


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    1. See my above comment:

      Anonymous,

      Exodus 16:29 says "Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out."

      According to the Written Torah, one was supposed to remain in one's dwelling on Shabbat and not go outside. So how then was Yeshua lawfully allowed to leave His dwelling on Shabbat and walk to synagogue?

      I'll await your response.

      Delete
    2. “Exodus 16:29 says "Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out."

      According to the Written Torah, one was supposed to remain in one's dwelling on Shabbat and not go outside. So how then was Yeshua lawfully allowed to leave His dwelling on Shabbat and walk to synagogue?”

      Let me ask you one (it relates and answers your question): Exodus 40:21
      "And he brought the ark into the tabernacle, and set up the vail of the covering, and covered the ark of the testimony; as the LORD commanded Moses."

      According to the Written Torah G-d commanded Moses to bring the ark into the tabernacle. So how were the priests able to carry it over the Jordan? And, how then was David lawfully allowed to place it in the house of Obededom the Gittite (which house received blessing), and later in the tent of David which was not the tabernacle Moses was commanded to place it in?

      Because the instructions of G-d are living. Yeshua (The Lord of the Shabbat who said it was made to serve us, we were not made to serve it) said his words are spirit and they are truth. As Israel moved so did the ark, so did the instruction, but the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law gives life.

      Now, directly to your question: The spirit of the commandment to remain in one’s dwelling on Shabbat was not to keep them home, but to keep them out of the fields looking for manna when there would be none.
      “ And it came to pass, that THERE WENT OUT SOME OF THE PEOPLE ON THE SEVENTH DAY FOR TO GATHER, and they found none.

      "And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; ABIDE YE EVERY MAN IN HIS PLACE, LET NO MAN GO OUT OF HIS PLACE ON THE SEVENTH DAY.”

      Your question: “So how then was Yeshua lawfully allowed to leave His dwelling on Shabbat and walk to synagogue?”

      My answer: Yeshua was lawfully allowed to leave his dwelling on Shabbat and walk to synagogue because the ordinance of gathering manna double on 6 day and to stay home and not gather manna on the Shabbat but rest only…….was for another time.

      The commandment to keep the Shabbat holy is forever, it was made for man, it is living, we will follow the duet 18 prophet and hear his instructions by his Ruach haKodesh, to keep the spirit of the law and not the letter.

      The spirit of the law of Shabbat is as I showed above. A Holy Convocation....to assemble and receive the teaching of G-d while we rest from our labors.

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    3. RE: "My answer: Yeshua was lawfully allowed to leave his dwelling on Shabbat and walk to synagogue because the ordinance of gathering manna double on 6 day and to stay home and not gather manna on the Shabbat but rest only…….was for another time."

      Ah, the old excuse emerges! "That command was meant for another time."

      So, in your view, you can't go by the Written Torah; something more is needed. In this case, you argue that the reasonable interpretation of a passage of Written Torah must be completely disregarded. So you've essentially created your own tradition, a hermeneutical tradition for interpreting passages with which you do not agree.

      So you have held to a tradition of man (your own tradition in this case) rather than confront the reasonable interpretation of the relevant section of Written Torah.

      You were, understandably, uncomfortable with the idea that Yeshua violated Torah. Obviously, He cannot violate Torah since He is perfect. Yet the Torah says to remain in your place on Shabbat, to not go out from it.

      In fact, what we have there is an example of an ambiguity. Without an authoritative tradition with which to interpret such an ambiguity, G-d's Scripture would present us with many such unresolvable ambiguities.

      So there's the logical proof that Yeshua resorted to traditions of men.

      Actually, the Torah itself commands us to follow the traditions of men. It says that judges should be appointed to resolve conflicts, a Sanhedrin appointed to legislate, etc. We're supposed to follow their decisions provided that those institutions are operating within their jurisdiction, not violating Torah or G-d's will.

      So tradition is unavoidable, my friend.

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  13. "Ah, the old excuse emerges! "That command was meant for another time."

    "So, in your view, you can't go by the Written Torah; something more is needed. In this case, you argue that the reasonable interpretation of a passage of Written Torah must be completely disregarded."

    Peter, so you believe we are to be gathering a double portion of manna each week before Shabbat?
    No "age old excuses"......???

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    1. Anonymous,

      If there is manna, then pick it up. If there is a Temple, go to worship in it.

      If there is Shabbat, stay in your place....but how do we define "place"?

      Do you see what I mean? The difference between manna command and Shabbat is that Shabbat still occurs.

      Stop kicking against the thorns. : )

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  14. "You were, understandably, uncomfortable with the idea that Yeshua violated Torah."

    Peter, I'm not uncomfortable with the idea that Yeshua violated Torah. He didn't. Had he violated Torah he would not have been found spotless and would not have been an acceptable sacrifice. He kept his father's commandments, or he is a liar. You are seriously going to represent the King as a sinner so you can be right and make your point? Really?

    "I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."

    As for a commandment to "keep the traditions of men" I have not found such. All the penalties and curses are for "breaking the law". The Law of Moses is not the traditions of men.

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    1. Anonymous,

      Here's what I said:

      "To say that is to say that Yeshua was a sinner (and He most assuredly was not)."

      So any reasonable person can see that I didn't call Him a sinner. But you, on the other hand, write that I called Him a sinner. So back up your statement by showing where I called Him a sinner. If you can't support your assertion then admit your error.

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  15. "Obviously, He cannot violate Torah since He is perfect. Yet the Torah says to remain in your place on Shabbat, to not go out from it."

    Peter, I admit the error, you actually said "he cannot violate Torah" my mistake.

    But, can you understand why I misunderstood your teaching?

    You are claiming on the one hand that he cannot break the torah, on the other hand he left his place to walk to assembly which you believe is a clear breaking of the torah?

    Or, am I still misunderstanding you?

    You are also saying, "if there is manna" to mean that commandment only is for the time when "there is manna". Wouldn't that also mean "it was for another time, since in this time there is no manna?

    Can you have it both ways?

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  16. "Do you see what I mean? The difference between manna command and Shabbat is that Shabbat still occurs."

    Peter, "the Ark" still existed when David put it in a man's house.

    What happened to G-d's commandment to Moses to place it in the tabernacle?



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