Thursday, May 30, 2013

A Vision for One-Law Halachah

We desperately, as a movement, need to develop several things.  Here's some examples in no particular order:

  • Messianic halachic commentary for the Mishneh Torah and Shulchan Aruch;

  • An English translation of the Shulchan Aruch (there is no English translation today;  there are English translations of the Kitzur but not the actual Shulchan Aruch);

  • Supplements for each of the Orthodox halachic codes, explaining which sections should be updated according to New Covenant realities and the range of options, from the strict to the lenient (e.g. how to restore legal force to ketubot and the need for separate ketubot for Jews and Non-Jews).  We could mass-produce these as inserts for people to place inside the front covers of the codes;

  • Supplements for Orthodox siddurim (not just Shabbat siddurim), highlighting sections that might conflict with Messianic Theology, offering suggested alternatives;

  • Systematic guides to the minchagim (although progress has been made on this front).

I'll try to talk to the One-Law leaders shortly and see if anyone is interested in developing these types of things.  You know..I've received emails from Messianics around the world who are interested in traditional halachah and do not feel represented by the more liberal ("progressive") segments of the Messianic movement.  I say it's time we give the tradionalist Messianics a voice! 

38 comments:

  1. Yeshua said we could build upon his sayings and the house would stand the storm.

    You believe we need more?

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    1. Anonymous,

      What are you talking about?

      Delete
  2. I'm talking about Yeshua's claim that those who build their house on the rock were those who kept his sayings.

    Your claim seems to be that we are in desperate need of something more?

    Why didn't Yeshua mention this desperate need"? Are you certain we need to have this you mention above? Is this direction from the Holy Spirit?

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    1. Anonymous,

      Yeshua did mention halachah (Matt. 23). Yeshua affirmed Jewish tradition and Law. Also, Paul supported Jewish tradition and Law (Acts 21).

      Let's keep in mind that Yeshua was an Orthodox Jew. He wore tzizit; He went to the Temple; He observed the moedim (even extra-Biblical ones like Chanukah). People think that because He disagreed with the stricter segments of Pharisaic Judaism that Yeshua was against Judaism entirely. Such people fail to understand first-century Judaisms.

      Show me one instance where Yeshua broke with all known schools of halachic thought. You can't do it. The reality: Yeshua operated with the halachic parameters of first-century Judaisms.

      Delete
  3. "The reality: Yeshua operated with the halachic parameters of first-century Judaisms."

    I think I understand what you believe, although I would state it this way: Yeshua operated within the halachic parameters he was instructed by his father. It is my understanding that "first-century Judaisms" were full of death and sickness and unrighteousness.

    "I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance".

    If these Judaisms you purport caused righteousness, Yeshua would not have to die on the cross. I don't see Yeshua upholding any "first-century Judaisms" like you claim. His keeping of the Law of Moses is not the same as Judaism. My proof of this is G-d's commandment to return to the Torah. Judaism had left the Torah. Yeshua said it to them like this:

    "Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keeps the law? Why go ye about to kill me?"

    Notice he did not say, some of you keeps it, or those over there are keeping it.

    Now, most Christians believe that what is needful for us was delivered to us...the body and blood of Messiah...and that we should become lawful according to the terms of the New Covenant.

    The Mormons say we need more than what was delivered to us by Yeshua. So, I'm not so much as disagreeing with you as to find out on what you base your opinion that we need these extra things. The Mormons say angels and golden plates and prophets? What do you have? Why do we need these things you mention above and what is your proof of our need?

    That's all I'm asking...

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  4. Annonymous,

    You speak nonsense...There are evidence in the Apostolic Writing where Yeshua adheres to Halacha...

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  5. Dan, the question is not is Yeshua adheres to man's Halacha, but his Fathers.

    So, show me your evidence that Yeshua followed man's ways.

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  6. "Dan, the question is not is Yeshua adheres to man's Halacha, but his Fathers."

    That is not a question, that is a fact.

    Matt. 3:15

    Where in the Tanach is public Mikvah commanded?

    Matt. 12:5

    Where in the Torah does it say this?

    Matt. 23:16

    It appears that Yeshua accepts the rabbinic tradition that the Temple and the altar has sanctifying authority, where would this be found in the Written Torah?

    Matt. 24:20

    Why would Yeshua think "flight on the Shabbat" to be a problem? Where in the Torah is there a prohibition for traveling on the Shabbat?

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    1. Dan,

      I'm not sure you can convince me that Yeshua followed man's teaching to fulfill all righteousness? I'm pretty set on believing his statement

      "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

      But let's say you did....

      Do you know someone to trust who could provide the above supplements, commentaries and guides? Do you believe we desperately need these things? Maybe you could make a case for such need?

      Delete
    2. Anonymous,

      The fact that Yeshua kept many of the traditions along with his disciples, means he consider them worthy of keeping, they were not in contradiction to God's word. If you are to imitate the Messiah, then you should consider how He lived His life and what He thought was right.

      Delete
    3. "It appears that Yeshua accepts the rabbinic tradition that the Temple and the altar has sanctifying authority, where would this be found in the Written Torah?"

      Exodus 29 "...whatsoever toucheth the altar shall be holy".

      "Why would Yeshua think "flight on the Shabbat" to be a problem? Where in the Torah is there a prohibition for traveling on the Shabbat?"

      Why would Yeshua think "not in winter" to be a problem? Is there a prohibition against winter travel?

      Delete
    4. "
      Exodus 29 "...whatsoever toucheth the altar shall be holy"."

      What verse? And who is touching the altar?

      "Why would Yeshua think "not in winter" to be a problem? Is there a prohibition against winter travel?"

      What is this? Are you beating your wife question? Don't bring red herrings in here, we are speaking about the Shabbat....

      Delete
    5. "What verse? And who is touching the altar?"

      Read the entire book, especially the chapter 29 and you will realize the altar sanctifies. Wasn't your premise that the written Torah did not mention the sanctification of the altar and so we must believe Yeshua was not obeying the written Torah but accepting Rabinnic Tradition?

      You asked where in the written Torah it can be found? It can be found in Exodus.

      "What is this? Are you beating your wife question? Don't bring red herrings in here, we are speaking about the Shabbat...."

      Your premise is to suppose that Yeshua said to pray your flight not be on the Sabbath Day, that this is not a Torah commandment, so you surmise it must mean Yeshua is following tradition.

      Yeshua also said pray your flight be not in winter.

      How can you believe his statement to pray our flight not be on Sabbath means he supports Jewish law, but ignore the part of the instruction concerning fleeing in winter?

      If there is no restriction on travelling in winter as there is for a Sabbaths day journey (in tradition), your theory falls apart.

      By the way, a red herring is when you put something out that is not the subject, to lure someone away from the truth.

      It's not a red herring to point to "the rest of the scripture" that you purposefully ignore just because you want to keep your traditions and I have proven your reason for doing so wrong.

      Your premise, which I see you got from Tim (I read his paper on tradition and he did a very poor job) is wrong.

      Delete
    6. "Read the entire book, especially the chapter 29 and you will realize the altar sanctifies. Wasn't your premise that the written Torah did not mention the sanctification of the altar and so we must believe Yeshua was not obeying the written Torah but accepting Rabinnic Tradition?

      You asked where in the written Torah it can be found? It can be found in Exodus."

      translation: I really cannot cite a specific verse, I was just trying to throw some stuff against the wall hoping that something would stick...

      Chapter 29 speaks of the priests being sanctified, not the lay people...Try again....

      Shabbat,

      Well, great Guru, teach us what Yeshua REALLY meant...Let's see how better your job is than Tim's....

      Delete
    7. "translation: I really cannot cite a specific verse, I was just trying to throw some stuff against the wall hoping that something would stick..."

      Once again, here is your words:

      "It appears that Yeshua accepts the rabbinic tradition that the Temple and the altar has sanctifying authority, where would this be found in the Written Torah?"

      "Exodus 29:37
      Seven days thou shalt make an atonement for the altar, and sanctify it; and it shall be an altar most holy: whatsoever toucheth the altar shall be holy."

      This proves the altar has sanctifying authority and whatsoever touches the altar shall be holy.

      I am not the Guru, Jesus is the Master and he told it plainly:

      "Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?"

      The altar sanctifies! It is Torah, not rabbinic tradition.

      "Let's see how better your job is than Tim's..."

      Rather, you should study Yeshua's words, HE is the prophet like unto Moses and HE spoke of these things. Had he not spoken you would be innocent in your errors. Because he came and spoke concerning these things, you have no excuse.

      Study Yeshua's words, they are spirit and eternal life.

      Delete
  7. Anonymous,

    You are missing the point...In the Passover meal Yeshua reclined, drank wine and dipped according to the tradition. Is there anything wrong with that?

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  8. "Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

    For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

    And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."


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  9. He did not lay down the commandments of God and yet He adhered to tradition. Stick around, you will learn a lot more...

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  10. Anonymous,

    Dan is right--it is unwise to suggest that Yeshua was against Jewish tradition when one need only glance at the New Testament to see that Yeshua was obedient to halacha which complemented the mitzvot.

    Yeshua was only against the traditions that conflicted with the letter or spirit of the mitzvot; Yeshua PROMOTED by His lifestyle those traditions which comported with the letter and spirit of the mitzvot.

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  11. Sorry, I just don't see this Yeshua you mention in the scriptures. Isn't it true it's just your desire to see Yeshua keeping traditions of men that makes you PROJECT this onto his actions.

    For instance, there is no proof Yeshua kept the traditions of Hanukkah as put forward here. The scripture only says he was in the temple during the man made holiday. It is easy to PROJECT ones desire to keep this tradition onto Yeshua and insist he observed. A way to interpret the scripture, but not what the scripture actually says.

    "Yeshua PROMOTED by His lifestyle those traditions which comported with the letter and spirit of the mitzvot."

    Not sure how you get this idea. Yeshua kept the Torah, teaching and practice concerning how to do so would be needful and thus we have his sayings.

    Never, that I am aware of, does Yeshua point to a tradition and say "that is good and right, do it that way".

    Or, can you point to one of his teachings that uphold a tradition?

    Rather, I can point to his teachings that condemn several traditions. Did he condemn them all? Well, he did say those who were keeping them were blind leaders of the blind.

    "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me."

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  12. "Sorry, I just don't see this Yeshua you mention in the scriptures."

    Then buy yourself a pair of glasses...I just showed you, but like all Christians, for you an old error is more comfortable than a new truth...

    "For instance, there is no proof Yeshua kept the traditions of Hanukkah as put forward here. The scripture only says he was in the temple during the man made holiday."

    Right, He made a mistake, He thought it is Passover....

    By you talking generalities you admit that you have no answer...Why don't you address each instant that I listed?

    "Or, can you point to one of his teachings that uphold a tradition?"

    Reclining, drinking wine, and dipping at the Passover meal...Are these Muslims traditions? Are these mentioned in the Written Torah?

    like I said, you talk nonsense....

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  13. "Why don't you address each instant that I listed?"

    Your first item, Yeshua's baptism if I am correct. You see this as Yeshua keeping traditions of men. If this was true Yeshua would have said the baptism he partook in that was by John, was just himself following traditions. But instead he asked this:

    "John’s baptism—where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or of human origin?”

    Now, I'm not going to go through every hoop of yours, you obviously are committed to keeping the traditions of men.

    I will say in closing, Passover is not a tradition and eating, dipping etc are normal parts of eating a meal. That traditions concerning meals sprang up and were enforced as law, that was also mentioned by Yeshua and he did not follow them or instruct his disciples to.

    "So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”

    You can't have it both ways, either Yeshua kept the traditions and instructed his disciples to live according to the traditions of the elders,

    or he did not!

    Shabbat Shalom!

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  14. "Right, He made a mistake, He thought it is Passover...."

    Your full of sarcasm and personal attacks, but no worries...

    This is how to interpret the mention of Hanukkah.

    Yeshua was walking in the temple, going about his fathers business, when men who were keeping the traditions of men hypocritically claiming to worship the "light" found him and tried to kill him because while they loved their traditions they hated the light and had murder in their hearts.

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    1. "Yeshua was walking in the temple, going about his fathers business, when men who were keeping the traditions of men hypocritically claiming to worship the "light" found him and tried to kill him because while they loved their traditions they hated the light and had murder in their hearts."

      If this is right, then why does John mentioned Hanukkah to begin with?...

      You are more the idiot I thought you are....

      Delete
  15. Anonymous,

    RE: "you obviously are committed to keeping the traditions of men."

    And you don't follow any traditions of men? You don't practice Easter or Christmas? You don't use an English translation of the Bible? Do you say a blessing for your food? Where did you learn it?

    Your life is FULL of traditions.

    Dan is right: you are talking nonsense.

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  16. Peter, no I don't keep Christmas or Easter or traditional Thanksgiving or any other man's holiday. Using an English translation is not a "tradition", I don't say a blessing for food. You don't know me so you clearly are not qualified to say this:

    "Your life is FULL of traditions"

    YOUR life may be full of traditions, mine is not! Don't project YOUR life onto mine.

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    1. Anonymous,

      Yes, an English translation of the Bible is a tradition of men. So are these:

      --speaking a language

      --using non-verbal body language

      --culture

      There's absolutely no way to avoid practicing traditions of men.

      What's wrong with you?

      Delete
  17. "What's wrong with you?"

    OK, I can see your not to be taken seriously nor is your website. You extend the LEGAL AUTHORITATIVE TRADITIONS we were speaking about to the fullest extent of what a tradition could be considered to be, ignoring the fact we were speaking specifically of Jewish man made Law....

    To be clear, I was not addressing if I have a "tradition" of using a hammer when I put a nail in, nor the "tradition of using toilet paper". But, I forget what type of man I am writing to, one who daily shows the typical behavior Yeshua condemned. I expect correctly your pitiful immature response.

    This website is full of division, personal attacks, false teaching, hatred and unforgiveness, no brotherly love found here, that's for sure, that's what I've found.

    "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

    I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.

    As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent"


    ReplyDelete
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    1. Go ahead, kill the messenger...Been there, done that...So how are the Dodgers doing?

      Delete
    2. "ignoring the fact we were speaking specifically of Jewish man made Law...."

      Reclining, dipping, drinking wine at the Passover meal, ARE "specifically of Jewish man made law..."

      Delete
    3. Maybe there was a message in the dipping?

      "Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon."

      Delete
    4. Maybe? You make your doctrines on a maybe? Are you a Mormon?

      Delete
  18. "Go ahead, kill the messenger...Been there, done that...So how are the Dodgers doing?"

    Dan, I'm sorry...I realize you were being serious, but Peter had to be his normal juvenile self and interject his silliness.

    Now, I don't want to participate in this blog further...but it's not because of you, even though you were rude to me I forgive you.

    Shabbat Shalom

    I'm done with this pitiful site, hopefully someone better suited than Peter will step up.

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    Replies
    1. Re: "hopefully someone better suited than Peter will step up."

      They have: see Torah Resource and TNN Online.

      Delete
  19. "If there is no restriction on travelling in winter as there is for a Sabbaths day journey (in tradition), your theory falls apart."

    Back at you...Matt. 23:16. Does the Temple actually sanctifies the gold, like Yeshua was arguing? Where is it in Torah?

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  20. Dan, you want to keep the traditions that led to the diaspora and the destruction of the temple?

    Let that be between you and Yeshua.

    But, there is penalty for twisting the words of Yeshua to mean something he did not mean just so you can keep your traditions.

    Yeshua spoke out against the "traditions of men" and he NEVER spoke FOR them.

    It would have been easy to say, if it had been truth, that traditions of men are good.

    Rather, they are revered by men at the expense of the Torah.

    If you knew the Torah, you would not ask me these questions.


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  21. "Dan, you want to keep the traditions that led to the diaspora and the destruction of the temple?"

    You don't know what I want or don't want to keep, don't you? you do not know me, do you? so stop building yourself a nice little straw-man, because it will not work with me, and stop this patronizing tone, or we can terminate this sorry conversation right now...

    "If you knew the Torah, you would not ask me these questions."

    So how come you cannot answer my question instead of shooting the messenger?

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  22. Dan, I think it best we do as you suggest and "terminate this sorry conversation right now..."

    But, shalom brother, I meant no offense nor to be patronizing. Shalom

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