Wednesday, June 18, 2014

Distilling and Clarifying the Issue: Are Gentiles New Covenant Members or Not?

Now, miscommunications aside, I think any One Law person out there believes that Gentiles are members of the New Covenant.  This is in contradistinction to the following expression that says that Gentiles are NOT members of the New Covenant:

"Admittedly, I was shocked when I first discovered that there was no direct covenant connection between “the Church” and God," (James Pyles, in a comment at

I for one believe that Gentiles have a direct covenant connection through the person of Messiah (direct because I believe that Yeshua IS Israel and that the New Covenant is LITERALLY in His precious blood).

So there are 2 distinct positions here:

POSITION 1:  Believing that Gentiles are NOT members of the New Covenant

POSITION 2:  Believing that Gentiles ARE members of the New Covenant.


  1. What's going on here? James Pyles and FFOZ believe that they are defending and protecting Israel, but their istakes/misstatements concerning the Church are grieving the Holy Spirit. (my mistakes grieve him too, so I’m not elevating myself above them.)

    I want to emphasize a few important things. Although I think Peter gets it, some others do not, and as Zion pointed out, much of our argument can be readily resolved.

    G-d makes covenant with whosoever HE wants to. It’s not up to us and Jews are neither more nor less because He makes covenant with gentiles too. Israel should not be glorified in the flesh as James Pyles wishes, nor should we become respecter of persons between Jew and Gentile as he promotes. We have all fallen short of the glory of G-d and should see that we are as nothing. We should worship and adore only He who loves us all without respect and more than we could even imagine. After all, Yeshua is the ONLY begotten son of G-d. And G-d could raise up Sons of Abraham from stones in the ground. We should be humble then and take care when we try to make divisions between what G-d has put together and made echad by his spirit.

    1) G-d is not a respecter of persons.

    2) Only G-d makes the new covenant

    3) Yeshuas’ blood and body offered, not by Israel, but by the
    Father for the cutting (God has provide himself a sacrifice)

    4) What is “in new covenant” in the body and blood of Messiah is
    alive (this did not happen in the old)

    5) What is not in covenant in the body and blood of Messiah is dead
    for that was the terms of the old covenant.
    We have all earned death for those are the wages of sin.

    6) EVERYTHING that is alive is only alive because it is IN
    CHRIST. Jew or Gentile, Male or Female, Free or Slave, what is made alive IS ISRAEL and is called by him “MY Church.

    7) Everything that is dead is NOT ISRAEL for G-d is not the G-d of
    the dead but of the living and G-d is the God of Israel.

    "But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

  2. Sorry Peter, that dog don't hunt. Is this your way not to answer my challenges in the previous post? every time you have no answer you are going to start a new thread?

  3. "For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the People who are on the face of the earth. The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the Lord loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the Lord brought you out by a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt."

    Who do you think God said it to, the LA Dodgers?

    This is a nartionalistic covenant with God that only Israel has. So please dispense with your replacement theology....

    Gentiles were offered to be members of the NC as individuals and only through Israel. Ever heard the term grafted in?

  4. If you think what I said is replacement theology your right. G-d is replacing the dead with the living. Its called resurrection and it is in a person called Yeshua. Gentiles are grafted in yes. To what?

    "I am the vine" not "Israel is the vine"

  5. There has to be a place of balance. Grafted in, yes, but what does that mean?

    Rom 9:6-8 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    Eph 2:12-13 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

    NO LONGER strangers to the covenantS of promise.

    Not replacing anyone, but absolutely joined TO.

    Consider what 'commonwealth' or πολιτεία (politeia) means... Compare to

    Act 22:28 And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained I this freedom (politeia). And Paul said, But I was free born.

    They were both citizens of Rome with all the rights and privileges, including land holding. One was born and one was adopted.

    Eze 47:22-23 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.

  6. Rom 9:6-8

    Why don't you start at verse 4?

    Eph. 2:12-13

    The commonwealth of what? Oklahoma? They were strangers and now they are blessed through Israel, just as the Abrahamic Covenant says, but you guys of course don't want to see this....

    Eze 47:22-23

    Inheritance in what? The stranger who sojourneth with who? The Chicago cubs? No, with ISRAEL there is through whom they get the blessings...

  7. "If you think what I said is replacement theology your right. G-d is replacing the dead with the living. Its called resurrection and it is in a person called Yeshua. Gentiles are grafted in yes. To what?

    "I am the vine" not "Israel is the vine""

    Yeshua is of Israel. (Romans 11:5)
    or maybe you erased this from your Bible?

  8. "you guys of course don't want to see this...."

    False. Even before coming to Torah, I have always held physical Israel in the highest esteem. Witness my blog.

    What I see is the MJ community wanting so badly to be accepted by Judaism that they happily throw the Torah-keeping Gentile under the bus. It is the IAMCS/MJAA et al who actively push Torah keeping Gentiles away... "you guys of course don't want to see this...."

    My very point in selecting those verses is proof that we have a place at the table regardless of what men say. Grafted in through Israel (Yeshua), and cannot be rejected (by men with an armload of extra-biblical tradition).

    I love you as a brother... You just have to deal with it. ;)

  9. Why are you stirring the discussion into a political one? Ask around about me....

  10. Dan, what about this?

    "And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust."

    In HIM do I trust and to HIM is the Glory. I trust and live in the root of Jesse and Israel did not die for my sin. Why should they glory? Dan made me think of something else G-d said:

    "Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the Lord hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

    The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.

    Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken theLord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

    Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

    From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

  11. Yeshua is from above, you are from below. You want to glory in yourselves, not in Messiah or we would not be having this discussion

  12. Dan,

    Since we're both Position 2 (see above), I really don't see that there is an actual disagreement.

  13. This is what anti-semites revel in...For everyone to see...You pray for Jewish blood to cover you, but dirty His brothers...Been there-done that....

  14. I did not ask you to answer here. I asked you to answer my comments on the previous post. If you can't just say so....

  15. Oh, you deny G-d spoke this? Is G-d an anti Semite?

  16. Not at all. I just stated one of the favorite old and tired line of anti-semites....

  17. No, we would not have this discussion if you had the guts to depart from the old tired line of the Christians anti-semites...You think you are the first one? Take a number please, the line is quite long....

  18. I believe whatever G-d said is truth. I point out what G-d said so you will cease glorifying yourself. You can't deal with the truth, so you resort to your bullying, although I already told you, it does not affect me.

    You should be ashamed to reduce the word of G-d, spoken by his Holy Prophet, to "one of the favorite old and tired line of anti-Semites"

    Shame shame shame

    To me you just spit on the truth of the prophets, for what?

    To glorify yourself

  19. "I believe whatever G-d said is truth."

    Really? So why don't you believe that Gen. 12:3 is the truth? Why don't you believe that Deut. 7:6 is the truth? Why don't you believe that Israel is to be a light to the nations? Why don't you believe that the Torah will come out of Zion and not Chicago?

    Why don't you believe that Yeshua when He says that He is the" root and the offspring of David?" You only believe He is a "vine?"

    Why don't you believe that He sent Jewish disciples into the nations to teach them?

    Because you believe only what you want to believe, not what gives you discomfort....

    You can't handle the truth!

  20. "False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge things that I knew not."

  21. "as individuals and only through Israel."

    What about this? "Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord."

  22. Are you talking about Christianity as we know it today?

  23. And Jerusalem of course is in South America, right? Please name one, just one nation, beside Israel that God made a covenant with, can you?

  24. I actually believe all those things, so you are just blowing smoke. You want to glorify yourself rather than the anointed one. Pity you are wasting your time but it's yours to waste. As for me, I will believe this truth:

    "For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

    25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."

  25. Yes I is "And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations"

    Another that comes to mind is the nation that is made up of all the called out ones. As Peter said to the strangers:

    "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light;

    Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.''

  26. Question: Do you believe one can be in covenant with the Messiah of the Jews while eschewing the Jewish people? In other words, "I'll take the Jewish Messiah, but I don't want the Jews or anything about them." One can then pick and choose bible verses that appear to back up your theology.

  27. Amen! Of course they believe it, they learn it as soon as they learn to read.

  28. "Yes I is "And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations"

    What is the name of this nation? A nation of birds, cattle, beasts? You engage in pretzel theology...This is what they teach you in the Church, to twist Scriptures.....

    "As Peter said to the strangers:"

    And that of course makes it a covenant...OY....Ask your teacher for a refund.....

  29. You may have heard this:

    William Norman Ewer: "How odd of God to choose the Jew."

    Leo Rosten (comic) "But not so odd

    As those who choose

    A Jewish God

    Yet spurn the Jews

    Cecil Brown: "Not so odd / The Jews chose God."

    Anonymous: How strange of man
    To change the plan

  30. "What is the name of this nation?"

    All the nations were in Noah, that is what is meant by "your seed after you".

    But of course, no sense arguing from the Jewish Scriptures because you don't seem to know them, you will just say I am twisting them.

    As for Peter, he knew a lot more about what is taking place than you do. But you don't seem to know those scriptures either.

  31. "But of course, no sense arguing from the Jewish Scriptures because you don't seem to know them, you will just say I am twisting them."

    "Jewish Scriptures?" What is "Jewish Scriptures?" Aah,,I know the NT was written by none Jews, like Paul and the other Apostles...I get it now....You see, they teach you this at a very young age and you grow up with hatred to the Jews and no matter what you say it sticks with you and you cannot get rid of it. And you have no shame.....

  32. All the scriptures are "Jewish Scriptures" I used that term to shame you for your not knowing them. Pointing out that you claim to be Jewish but don't even know that the nations came from Noah, so G-d has made a covennant with EVERY nation, but you want to falsly promote he only makes covennat with Israel.
    I'm sure you kiss the Torah on Shabbat with that mouth you make snide comments about the Prophets being a "tired old line of anit-semtics.

    I was not taught to hate Jews in church so another of your false accusations where you break the torah. I also was not taught to revere them as something they are not. I'll save my worship for the one who should be worshiped.

    Everything I've ever said is the the "Jewsish Scriptures", I never said anything that was not taught in the bible by Jews. I love the scriptures, I love the Jews who wrote them. I love the Messiah, and I love all the brethern without being a respecter of persons.

    So, stop trying to glorify Israel as something that is bringing forth the fruits of the Kingdom. The nation that is bringing forth the fruits of the Kingdom is the Church and is made up of those called out by G-d (not up to you-never was) and made into a nation seperated unto G-d and married to Messiah. This nation I can name..."The Church"

  33. I've been praying for the three Jewish Boys, that G-d would make a safe and peaceable return possible.