Whenever there's a debate about whether something is X or Y, that's a definitional argument. Examples:
- Is Johnny an alcoholic or non-alcoholic?
- Is the living organism in the mother's womb a human or non-human?
There are two types of definitional arguments: (1) elemental arguments and (2) applicational arguments.
If there's disagreement about how to define something (the elements of a thing) then you've got an elemental argument; if there's agreement how to define something but disagreement as to whether it applies then you've got an applicational argument.
So the basic structure for a definitional argument looks like this:
(1) elements of the definition
(2) application: examples of how the elements apply to the subject
I say all of this so that if someone wants to place a label on someone, to say that a person is a Two Houser for example, then in the interests of fairness, he really must define the category by listing all the elements and then show examples of how the person meets each element. As followers of Yeshua, we should be fair in all of our dealings and show ourselves to be clear thinkers.
I did just that. I stated that there is no such thing as the so-called "lost 10 tribes" that the 2 house theology claims, as of now, no one addressed that.....Is this definite enough for you?
ReplyDeleteHere is the question I am wrestling with: If the returning remnants that were miniscule fulfilled the prophesies, then why did the Rabbis for another 1500 years or so look for the ten lost tribes? There are many references in the rabbinic literature with expectations of yet finding the tribes over the next mountain range, across the next sea... until the age of exploration ended.
ReplyDeletePlease don't misunderstand me, 1.) I am not saying those returnees were not important as an early fulfillment. 2.) I am saying that there are still numerous prophecies that make no sense, zero sense, if both Judah and Efraim/Joseph/House of Israel are already joined and the same group.
So where does that leave me? Personally, I claim NO physical descendency. None, zero, zilch, nada! Honestly, I think speculation to that end is unfruitful and irrelevant. My thought is this: What if Abba has used this device in prophecy as a vehicle to bring back a people who are the spiritual descendants from the perspective that in numerous ways they exactly model a return from the pagan ways of Jeroboam. "...They feared the Lord and served their own gods according to the customs of the nations..." II Kings 17:33 and all surrounding text.
Paul taught full citizenship and acceptance through Messiah.
I am at Revive 2014 right now and Rico Cortes, in a teaching on sects of the first century spoke for a few minutes about viewing Paul's arguments as that of an immigration attorney dealing with a legal dispute over who has authority for allowing citizenship. Was that authority the property of the rabbis (executive branch)? (Acts 11 and 15?) Or, was that authority God's as described in the Torah (legislative branch)? (Scott Aaron, an attorney, in an unrelated teaching mentioned separation of powers and assigned the branches w/ Levites rounding out the Judicial branch... an interesting line of thought as well.)
Paul's argument hinges on Messiah and simple Torah obedience, where the rabbinic argument hinges on full subscription to 'law' (executive orders?) that sometimes contradict the Legislative branch's 'Constitutional' requirements.
Rico stated plainly that Judah is the elder brother and is to be honored and respected. They have done MUCH and been through MUCH to preserve the Torah and much valued halacha. But he also said, this is a dispute we have to wait for the King to settle. He warned that in a covenantal relationship, attacking or barring our brother from the King is a serious crime against the King, thus, we must proceed carefully when demanding that another has no rights or standing apart from coming through us.
Thoughts?
Dan,
ReplyDeleteNot good enough. By your definition, the Rabbis were Two House.
Look, you're trying to put someone in a category but you haven't adequately defined the category.
This is all you have to say? No good enough? Of course the rabbis are 2 house, the House of Judah and the House of Israel, Dhaa...But can you show us where did the Rabbis write that Gentiles are Part of the "10 tribes?"
ReplyDelete"Here is the question I am wrestling with: If the returning remnants that were miniscule fulfilled the prophesies, then why did the Rabbis for another 1500 years or so look for the ten lost tribes? There are many references in the rabbinic literature with expectations of yet finding the tribes over the next mountain range, across the next sea... until the age of exploration ended."
ReplyDeleteYou need to study the difference between AGADDA and HALACHA in Rabbinic writing. The rabbis write about the "lost 10 tribes" around the river Sambatyon which does not exist, it is only a legend story. To take a legend and make it exist is the height of of twisting. also, nowhere does the Rabbis write that Pete Rambo is part of the "lost tribes." 2 house warped theology wants us to believe that legend is reality.....
"Please don't misunderstand me, 1.) I am not saying those returnees were not important as an early fulfillment. 2.) I am saying that there are still numerous prophecies that make no sense, zero sense, if both Judah and Efraim/Joseph/House of Israel are already joined and the same group."
Fire away...let's see them...And make sure to show us where does it talks about today's Gentiles....
"So where does that leave me? Personally, I claim NO physical descendency. None, zero, zilch, nada! Honestly, I think speculation to that end is unfruitful and irrelevant. My thought is this: What if Abba has used this device in prophecy as a vehicle to bring back a people who are the spiritual descendants from the perspective that in numerous ways they exactly model a return from the pagan ways of Jeroboam. "...They feared the Lord and served their own gods according to the customs of the nations..." II Kings 17:33 and all surrounding text."
If you say that this is metafphrical here, then I agree, but from here to the Gentiles are actual descendants of the 10 tribes is a long twist.....
"Rico stated plainly that Judah is the elder brother and is to be honored and respected."
So what does this implies? That Rico is the younger brother? Ask him to name the tribe he is from.....LOL!
Rabdan,
ReplyDeleteI know you just like being argumentative ;) but seriously! You choose not to have a decent discussion. Take my comments out of context and twist... Fine.
Jeremiah 3:6-18. No brainer. Israel is not Judah. Judah is not Israel. To present them as such destroys plain text. When do they come together? "in those days" when Jerusalem is 'the Throne of the Lord' and all nations are gathered to it.
One of many such examples. House of Israel and House of Judah are not and have not been joined. It is a future event.
Now, what is your explanation for who Israel is in this context, because they aren't Judah?
Isaiah 11:11-13 (and surrounding context) speaks to that same day... Who is Ephraim? Right now. Today. Who is Ephraim? Point him out?
I want to see.
So, because I don't agree with your views I choose not to have a decent discussion? What comments of yours I took out of context?
ReplyDelete"Jeremiah 3:6-18. No brainer. Israel is not Judah. Judah is not Israel."
No brainer? Read Amos 9:7-15. God says He will "shake the house of Israel among all the nations", can you see a difference here? You know. Israel and the Gentiles (nations). And then God speaks of raising the house of David, from what tribes was David? And will restore the captivity of "My people Israel." They will not again be rooted out of their land" Isn't that exactly what is happening since 1948? You want to look for Ephraim, look there...But the 2 house warped theology insist that the people in Israel are all from the tribe of Judah. You see, they already decided....They shoot the arrow first and then paint the target....Some theology.....