Tuesday, June 17, 2014

Question for Dan [UPDATED AT BOTTOM]

[NOTE:  this post is going to be a little different.  I'm going to edit the post itself so that each new comment appears in sequence]

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TO:  Dan
FROM:  PETER

Do you actually believe that Yeshua's blood has not been offered to Gentiles?  Or are we just having a massive Hebrew-English communication breakdown?  

To briefly recap, you said I had no evidence for the proposition that the New Covenant includes both Jews and Gentiles and so after citing to 1 Cor. 11:25 and Eph 2:13, I cited to Prophecy (e.g. Joel 2) which indicates that G-d planned from the beginning to offer the blood of the New Covenant to the world because He loves the entire world regardless of ethnicity.  So let's resume our discussion.

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TO:  PETER

FROM: DAN

[Dan begins by quoting from James Pyles:] "For the New Covenant was made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel, not the people of the nations, and it is only by coming alongside Israel rather than replacing her or co-opting her unique relationship with God, that we can enjoy blessings of the covenants God made with the Jewish people."


[Next, Dan writes:]


This is what James wrote and you disputed that. I called you on that and asked you to show me one place in Scriptures where it says that the NC is offered to the Gentiles. You have yet to do that. Gentiles are in because of the Abrahamic Covenant. (Gen. 12:3). The Gentiles are blessed through Israel, they don't take over. You need to drop this 2 house thing from your mind.



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TO: DAN
FROM: PETER

Dan, I have presented Scriptural evidence (1 Cor. 11:25, Eph. 2:13, Joel 2, Acts 2, 11:15) that the New Covenant was offered not just to Jews but also to Gentiles.  

Yet I asked you a direct question and you refused to answer.  I asked you "Do you actually believe that Yeshua's blood has not been offered to Gentiles?"  I have responded to your questions, please show me the same courtesy.

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TO: PETER
FROM: DAN

[RE:]  "Yet I asked you a direct question and you refused to answer. I asked you "Do you actually believe that Yeshua's blood has not been offered to Gentiles?" I have responded to your questions, please show me the same courtesy."
I thought I answered it on the other thread. It was not offered to the Gentiles. It was offered to Israel and the Gentiles receive it through Israel.

Where in 1 Cor. 11:25 does it say that the NC was offered to the Gentiles? You are reading your agenda into Scriptures.
Where in Ephes. 2:13 does it say that the NC was offered to the Gentiles? There is no offer there, only an after fact that NOW, by the blood of Yeshua.....
Who did Joel speak to? Who are the inhabitants of the land, and what land is it, Chicago?
Who did Peter spoke to in Acts 2? The NY Nicks?
Acts 11:15 is this a direct offer or and after effect?
You are reading your agenda into Scriptures.

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TO: DAN
FROM: PETER

Dan, you wrote that "[Yeshua's blood] was not offered to the Gentiles." And then, nonsensically, you wrote:  "…Gentiles receive [Yeshua's blood] through Israel."

So, pray tell me, how can Gentiles receive something that was never offered to them?

The reality is that a gift must be offered before someone can accept it.  Face it:  Yeshua offered the gift of the New Covenant to both Jews and Gentiles.  


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TO: PETER
FROM: DAN


"Yeshua offered the gift of the New Covenant to both Jews and Gentiles. "
Quote Him, can you?

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TO: DAN
FROM: PETER

I quoted Him by presenting His Scripture; you, in turn, presented a logical absurdity:  that the Gentiles accepted a gift which was never offered to them.  



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UPDATE:  this discussion continues in the comments below but I have since distilled the issue in a subsequent post.  There are really 2 positions:   Position 1:  Gentiles are NOT members of the New Covenant or Position 2:  Gentiles ARE members of the New Covenant.  So, semantic or mechanic issues aside, those are the 2 positions--you're either one or the other.



15 comments:

  1. I will answer with my last comment on the other post:

    ""For the New Covenant was made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel, not the people of the nations, and it is only by coming alongside Israel rather than replacing her or co-opting her unique relationship with God, that we can enjoy blessings of the covenants God made with the Jewish people."

    This is what James wrote and you disputed that. I called you on that and asked you to show me one place in Scriptures where it says that the NC is offered to the Gentiles. You have yet to do that. Gentiles are in because of the Abrahamic Covenant. (Gen. 12:3). The Gentiles are blessed through Israel, they don't take over. You need to drop this 2 house thing from your mind.

    ReplyDelete
  2. NOTE: Dan's comments are being cut and pasted to the original post above so that everything appears in sequence.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Where in 1 Cor. 11:25 does it say that the NC was offered to the Gentiles? You are reading your agenda into Scriptures.


    Where in Ephes. 2:13 does it say that the NC was offered to the Gentiles? There is no offer there, only an after fact that NOW, by the blood of Yeshua.....


    Who did Joel speak to? Who are the inhabitants of the land, and what land is it, Chicago?


    Who did Peter spoke to in Acts 2? The NY Nicks?


    Acts 11:15 is this a direct offer or and after effect?


    You are reading your agenda into Scriptures.

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  4. "

    "Yet I asked you a direct question and you refused to answer. I asked you "Do you actually believe that Yeshua's blood has not been offered to Gentiles?" I have responded to your questions, please show me the same courtesy."

    I Thought I answered it on the other thread. It was not offered to the Gentiles. It was offered to Israel and the Gentiles receive it through Israel.

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  5. "Yeshua offered the gift of the New Covenant to both Jews and Gentiles. "


    Quote Him, can you?

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  6. You need to learn to dispense with your lawyer logic. Scriptures were not given to us in some law office in Virginia. Please respond to the Scriptures and question I raised.


    All the families of the earth will be blessed through who? (Gen.12:3)


    If the NC was offered to the gentiles, then why did Paul write Romans 11?


    I responded to your claim, please show me the same courtesy.... (you see? 2 can play the same game...).

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  7. Oh, and all my answers to your Scriptures, did you forget to address?

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  8. I think you guys are talking past each other.


    Can both agree that the New Covenant was only made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, as is clearly stated in scripture? If yes...


    Then can both agree that in the Messiah, a gentile is grafted in and is part of the covenant, only in the Messiah, as a gentile has no other access? If yes.


    Then you are both speaking past each other.

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  9. Amen, Zion. This is my position, Peter does not agree.

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  10. First of all no one comes to the father except by Yeshua and
    no one comes to Yeshua except he be drawn by G-d. Israel did not die for anyone’s sin. Israel was not sent down from heaven. Israel was a sinner and no flesh should glory
    in his sight. However, that which is
    alive is held in the corporate body of Christ in G-d’s own name.

    The New Covenant does not come from Israel and Judah. It was MADE with Israel and Judah. Israel did not do anything to warrant it, in
    fact the opposite. G-d said he did it “for
    my own name sake.”

    Israel cannot make a covenant with the gentiles, the
    covenant G-d made WITH Israel, he also made with “whosoever believes.”

    It is Yeshua who is “the anointed one.” It is Yeshua who said “G-d has given me life
    in myself and I give it to whoever I will” not Israel. It is “he which was ordained of God to
    be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through HIS name whosoever believeth in HIM shall receive remission of
    sins.

    So why shame the Anointed One by thinking we are anything?

    “Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”

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  11. "The New Covenant does not come from Israel and Judah. It was MADE with Israel and Judah. Israel did not do anything to warrant it, "


    I rest my case....

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  12. Zion,


    For Gentiles to have "access" (and you need to define what you mean here, is it membership in the New Covenant???) that access must have been GRANTED in the first place (through Yeshua). In other words, access occurs because Yeshua OFFERS it to Gentiles.


    This is just plain logic and commonsense. We Gentiles didn't just steal the New Covenant membership without permission/invitation. That's not possible and wouldn't make any sense.

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  13. James Pyles says there is no covenant connection between Gentiles (he calls them the "church") and G-d:

    "Admittedly, I was shocked when I first discovered that there was no direct covenant connection between “the Church” and God," (James Pyles, in a comment at http://mymorningmeditations.com/2014/06/17/briefly-revisiting-gentiles-and-the-new-covenant/).



    Now I'm pretty sure that neither Zion nor Dan agree with that statement! That's why I think there's a miscommunication of some kind.

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  14. I mean membership only through Messiah, no other way, since it is not made with gentiles.


    Like I said before, this seems to be a semantic issue. Fumbling over technicality. However it is important to understand that we have no access as gentiles to the covenant without Yeshua. Because it is only in Him, that we are made near and brought in. It is also why we have no need of converting or becoming Jews.

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  15. Well we both know there is no covenants with what most people call the "Church". It all belongs to Israel, and those who join... It usually shocks people, to read the bible for exactly what it says, too much tradition has blinded the eyes.


    Just like the Mosaic Covenant was not made with the nations, however many from the nations joined...

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